Bruce Schultz <brulzki <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Matthew Marchese <maffblas...@gentoo.org> writes:
>> I see that you've found stager. I'd like you to share
your thoughts >> on what a perfect installer Gentoo could do.
A successful gentoo installer will:
Be multi-faceted so that many different, but common
installation outcomes are not only possible, but are
automated to the point of extreme convenience for folks to
use them, as they choose. Let's face it no matter what we do,
most noobs will not use Gentoo. But, those folks with some
level of experience and competence will use gentoo; many more
if there is an automated (base)installation. After all, when
google or others corporations install and use gentoo, do you
think they have folks spend 1-2 days using the handbook? NO,
their gentoo(derivative) has an automated installation.
So a base-installer for your [category 1] is the
most important part. So in that train of thought,
WE, should parse out all of the good parts of many
different installers and installation schemes, as a part
of the research and leverage as to what exists that can
be leveraged or emulated, Debian included. OpenSuse has
(13.2) has a slick install that allows for btrfs without
lvm or mdadm. That was the default pathway. I've read that
you can end up with a full raid install if you choose the
"advanced" pathway. I'm still researching that one. Then
there is 'Calculate Linux' that more than one gentoo dev
uses routinely to install Gentoo. There are many pathways
to streamline the installation of Gentoo. Many, for onerous
reasons believe that is a bad idea.
There is plenty of existing installation code that sets up
MBR and ext*; so that's a no brainer on how to do that. Newer
technologies, like btrfs are tricky.
> In my opinion, there's really 3 parts to the install
process, and I think it helps to distinguish > between
them. I think a complete installer program has to address
all 3, but each task could be > modularised.
> 1. The low level decisions, like disk partitioning, raid
and disk mirroring, filesystem choices > like ext4, btrfs,
zfs, or some other. For a VM, the choices here might include
creating a > new LVM volume or btrfs subvolume
Gentoo is not going to formally support ZFS as has been
stated before. However supporting ZFS by others is well
documented and some maverick could easily extend the
gentoo-base installer for a target system (after your
Category-1) where ZFS is installed. Just not officially
gentoo.
> 2. Installing system files, which is not much more than
untaring the stage3, and low level > system configuration
of make.conf settings, choice of profile, locale & timezone
settings, > users & passwords, networking, choice of syslog &
from, etc
Category-2 This is a pretty easy part to automate. Many
have stated that all of this information could be gathered
up before the actual installation (batched) begins and
parsed out at the appropriate time during the actually
(automated) installation.
All of Category 1 as well as some parts of Category-2 are
what I refer to as the base-install. After that point is
when you make key decisions like workstation vs server vs
embedded vs tablet.
> 3. Higher level system configuration to get to a finalised
state
This is the part of the traditional Gentoo handbook I do
agree with. This is the part of the installation where noobs
begin to actually learn gentoo, or at least those parts
necessary for routine administration and usage. This is part
of the handbook that is trivial for experience *nix folks
as most are familiar with more than one package manager or
software installation semantic.
Most of these sorts of noobs (folks that struggle with
maintaining a *nix system) are never going to profile
low level kernel code or compare one file system against
another, so why make it mandatory to master category 1 in
order to install, use and enjoy gentoo? Currently, the lack
of a gentoo installer is exactly that:: a blocker to noobs.
That's not my issue:: the devs are using 'mis-direction' here
to prohibit the creation of a slick-smooth-unattended-useful
base-install semantic for those with moderate *nix skills,
imho. YMMV. That's my issue. Dont belive me? Just go to
gentoo-dev and read the flack that MaffBlaster caught
on the list, merely for discussion a new installation
semantic. Hence the focus on 'stage-4' install code.
> (Of course, there's quite a bit of blurring between
the stages.)
Yes, understood, we're talking at a high-level of abstraction
here.
> I'm not so interested in 1, but gentoo really shines
here because there are no restrictions. > But there are
so many options that it makes it a big task to tackle,
unless you pare it down > and focus on a few typical use
cases like a standard desktop install.
OK, well this is where we part company. If you really believe
this and all we end up with is a competitive distro install
with buntu, what's the point? Critics are going to seize
on this and say see, your recruiting the idiots and ricers
from buntu to come to gentoo for indentured support. Like
them, that's not really the target of my goals. I do think
some will learn a sufficient amount about gentoo and using
*nix in general that they will stick around and benefit
the community.
I think a solid base-install that is automated benefits
the folks that already know their way around *nix and
they can quickly benefit form the source code build out
tools very, very quickly. If somebody does not know the
difference between C and C++, I'm not for catering to their
needs. But the lack of a good, automated installer for the
basics does run off many accomplished *nix folks who could
then the gentoo community tremendously, imho.
If somebody wants to build a firewall, a stealth sniffer
(no ether traces, a bridge, an embedded system product, a
workstation with openrc and lxqt or wayland, a cluster (in
house hardware) or a cloud (outsourced hardware) then that
is where we need to distinguish gentoo's installation. It
becomes a tool for those with expertise to rapidly install
the base-system and then do things you cannot do with buntu.
Note:: I use the term 'base' to distinguish from 'default'
which is the terminology chosen for gentoo's profile
system of choices. They are similar, but I believe that
a base-install is less than a default system on a given
architecture. This is a concept that I am still trying to
refine for categories of systems like tablets, embedded
and other kinds of minimal hardware types of systems. It's
a different issue for a different thread.
> Part 2 is where it would be good to have a standardised
approach, along the lines of > debian's debootstrap
utility. Something that takes a target directory and installs
all the > files needed to build a bare-bones system inside
it. Its actually not that difficult > to write a shell script
to achieve this, which is probably why there are so many >
posted around the interests. But something standardised
could be the basis of a gui > installer, or the center of
a container installer such as the lxc-gentoo script or >
whatever the docker equivalent is.
What you are talking about here, to me, can be part of
your category-3. In fact, I modify what you have written
to only (2) parts Step-1(base-install) and Step-2 (Final
Target). Step-2 does not need to be automated by gentoo
officially imho. It's mostly a few config questions and
a collect of packages. You can actually auto this right
now. Just create your own 'profile' on top of a default
installation and use ansible.
MuffBalster said the first part is the easiest part;
that is to go back to supporting (stage-4) installs. Lot
of subtle intricacies with 'stage-4' but I'll give you my
take so you can see where the devs are rolling.
If you have expertise and have created one utopian install
for a highly targeted need, then a stage-4 installation
semantic will allow you to quickly clone that work and build
many more similar system, in a fully automated fashion. So
for Clustering, cloud, google, large institutions or
consultants with advanced skills, it become a defacto private
installation sematic where the inner circle and those with
a strong set of admin/programming skills prosper. Maybe an
inner circle? The noobs are still filtered out. Those in
the middle to do gain from the knowledge and expertise of
the inner core of devs. Is that the way it should be? Not
for me to decide. I'd just like some help with newer file
systems (btrfs), gpt, grub2, and such issues in Step-1.
Those that have painted my position to be recruiting the
masses of noobs from buntu, are using mis-direction to
prevent the large number of moderate-skilled gentoo community
from the benefits of a streamlined installation. The
fact is that gentoo had a very useful, mostly automated
installation, and it was abandoned because of the catering
to the noob issues. But they did not have to abandon the
STEP-1 needs of those with sufficient *nix skills to benefit
from installation automation.
> The 3rd task is more in the realm of tools such as ansible
or puppet.
Step 3 already exists in rudimentary form::
Both Sephan and Alan have posted on using ansible for
gentoo installs. It's just not polished to the point of
being an installer, imho. There are many other formulas,
playbooks and such for installing gentoo, but they are
cumbersome, imho. Folks stop short of finishing them,
as is their right to do so. Once you go down the path of
applying noob_polish to the installation semantic, it does
become an unsustainable nightmare, or at least that is the
propaganda:: which I am neutral on.
>> Having that said, and having done few Gentoo
installations: I'm merely >> wishing installing Gentoo
wasn't such a lengthy process. It's lengthy >> in that you
have to do the steps manually while browsing the excellent
>> handbook.
Ah, so you agree, streamline the base and most can streamline
the target part of their installation needs without much
assistance; thus avoiding noob_population_explosion.
>> If there was an installer that would guide you through
these steps and >> bring up the files you need to edit
in an editor, that could save a lot >> of time already.
It could reduce the possibility for error, as in >>
overlooking that you need to do some step.
> Which is what part 2 is about. I started writing
my own installer based on using > ebuild files for the
configuration. But I like your idea of an interactive mode
for configuration.
>> Otoh, I have to come to like how Gentoo is installed.
You can do >> whatever you like, and the process is pretty
straightforward. I don't >> see how an installer could
give you that, yet a perfect installer would >> need to.
> And that is the difficulty inherent in a gentoo
installer... If its too restrictive, > its not really gentoo
anymore; if its flexible to cover all the options, you may
as > well just stick with typing commands in a shell...
I disagree. If the base-install is automated then the
second half of customizations are trivial to automate or
following the handbook to learn gentoo, as it is very easy
and straight-forward. Once you do that part a few times,
it's a collection of configs and ebuilds that are easy to
master and automate.
>> How about support for booting from ZFS? I'd really like
to see that; >> itshould be as easy as booting from other
file systems. Without it, we >> have to do ugly things.
ZFS is a different (license?) issue. There was a ZFS livedvd
circa 2012..... Go look at that for ideas.
If I seem 'conciliatory' to those opposed to the install
software development, it's because I put in some time
looking at the issue from their prospective. Your breaking
apart of the installation ssemantics did help me focus on
the Step-1 issue; which is the point and what need to be
automated, imho.
Last Zinger:: SystemD created quit a stir on this list right
down to the heart of gentoo's soul as a distro. I believe
that was healthy. When I go round the net, that is still
the single biggest issue where gentoo get's respect from
all corners (except Lennart's hottub parties)......
I just which we, gentoo as a distro, were embracing and
automating the installation of BTRFS, like we pursued
systemd. BTRFS is a game changer and many advanced folks
and institutions are using it. It's a bear. So, I'd settle
(be very happy) if out of these installer threads we just
end up with an automated way to complete a BTRFS, raid-1
system that includes a completed fstab, gpt and grub2
issues in some sane and automated way. WE can still filter
out the noobs........OK?
PEACE?
James
