Stuart There should have been a preprint of a paper to the European Wave and Tidal Energy Conference attached to my reply to Alvia but if it got lost I will send you another.
The CO2 transfers to and from the oceans are far larger than present anthropogenic ones. The phytoplankton grow at a much higher rate than vegetation on land and reach maturity in a few days. But if they then decay the enormous amount of CO2 gets back into the atmosphere. The trick will be to have a food chain reaching to creatures big enough to fall to the sea bed at the end of their life cycle. We should let the sardines do it. Stephen Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design School of Engineering and Electronics University of Edinburgh Mayfield Road Edinburgh EH9 3JL Scotland tel +44 131 650 5704 fax +44 131 650 5702 Mobile 07795 203 195 [email protected] http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs Stuart Strand wrote: > > I hope that there will be a peer-reviewed publication soon. I may read > that since those are not supposed to be written to obfuscate. > > Question: Do the patent claimants consider the CO2 that would be > released by this mixing of the oceanic layers? Or perhaps it would > impact the ability of that part of the ocean to absorb CO2 from the > atmosphere. Seems to me that it cannot be a good thing to speed up > mixing of the sequestered deep ocean pool. > > = Stuart = > > Stuart E. Strand > > 167 Wilcox Hall, Box 352700, Univ. Washington, Seattle, WA 98195 > > voice 206-543-5350, fax 206-685-3836 > > skype: stuartestrand > > http://faculty.washington.edu/sstrand/ > > *From:* [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Alvia Gaskill > *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:56 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Cc:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [geo] Re: Hurricane Insurance > > http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20090716/tc_pcworld/canbillgatescontroltheweather > > More discussion of the Microsoft Platform for Wind Suppression. The > professor from U. Miami echoes a concern of mine as well that the > water in the ocean moves horizontally as well as vertically. However, > having enough devices positioned close enough together would tend to > offset at least the surface changes in water temperature from warm > water infiltration. Dr. Nolan also thinks the entire concept is flawed. > > From a policy perspective, it is interesting that Gates et al. > (actually Gates, as et al. really has no say) wants his own insurance > policy from critics, stating that the technology would only be used if > all other mitigation options were exhausted. Really? Look, we had > killer hurricanes long before the industrial revolution. If this > technology could prevent 1 cat 1 storm from becoming a cat 3-5 and > striking the U.S. mainland, it would be worth the trouble up to > several billion dollars. TODAY. > > Applying this to remove CO2 from the atmosphere as is one of its > stated applications is more relevant to the "should we do it now or > later" argument. But Stephen, based in part on Ken's calculations has > argued that there would be benefits above and beyond carbon credits > for biomass removal. So, I find the Plan C argument unbelieveable and > thus makes me wonder if IV is a vanity patent factory to help improve > the Boss Man's public image at a time when billionaires, however they > got their money, are not all that popular. > > > Can Bill Gates Control the Weather? > > * By Brennon Slattery - Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:16AM EDT > > <http://www.pcworld.com/> > > Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, is a man with a permanent light bulb > over his head. His latest idea? Controlling the weather. Sounds > insane, but in a patent application > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/pcworld/tc_pcworld/storytext/canbillgatescontroltheweather/32728062/SIG=15oeps6es/*http:/appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220090173386%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20090173386&RS=DN/20090173386> > > recently released to the public, Gates and several co-inventors have > concocted a scheme to kill hurricanes over the ocean before they wreak > havoc on land. > > The idea is for barges to pump cold water from the depths of the ocean > to create a sort of road block for the hurricane. Since hurricanes > cull power from the water's warm temperatures, cooling the water could > theoretically lessen the impact or outright dismantle a hurricane. > > Intellectual Ventures Lab, an organization built by former Microsoft > executives to brainstorm new technologies to benefit mankind, says > that this isn't a Plan A or Plan B scenario, but rather a Plan C. > Pablos Holman wrote in the company's blog > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/pcworld/tc_pcworld/storytext/canbillgatescontroltheweather/32728062/SIG=11vr1b8kd/*http:/intellectualventureslab.com/?tag=hurricane-suppression> > > that Big Hurricane Suck would be used when "humans decide that we have > exhausted all of our behavior changing and alternative energy options > and need to rely on mitigation technologies." > > It's hard not to make a joke here about Windows -- the analogy is too > powerful. Once Microsoft exhausted its resources patching and > promoting > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/pcworld/tc_pcworld/storytext/canbillgatescontroltheweather/32728062/SIG=12t4ftp52/*http:/www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/150721/microsofts_renewed_vista_strategy.html> > > Vista, it was forced into pushing Windows 7 > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/pcworld/tc_pcworld/storytext/canbillgatescontroltheweather/32728062/SIG=1221hi7q4/*http:/www.pcworld.com/article/167444/windows_7_upgrade_faq.html> > > out earlier than expected. Stop the storm before it intensifies, > lands, and destroys PCs due to faulty builds. Ahh. There, I said it. > > http://intellectualventureslab.com/?tag=hurricane-suppression > > *A Machine to Stop Hurricanes* > > July 10th, 2009 pablos <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?author=2> > Leave a comment <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=126#respond> Go > to comments <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=126#comments> > > It might be possible to suppress hurricanes so they aren’t so > devastating to people who live in their path. We’ve been inventing in > this area along with climate change and alternative energy sources > <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?tag=terrapower>. Today a patent > application > <http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=> > > related to this was published by the USPTO and TechFlash has written a > nice piece about this > <http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/50385622.html>. Some of the > questions that came up in the comments there are about whether this > type of inventing should be done in the first place. We absolutely > believe that we should investigate our options should the > environmental change cause severe disruption. This type of technology > is not something humankind would try as a “Plan A” or “Plan B.” These > inventions are a “Plan C” where humans decide that we have exhausted > all of our behavior changing and alternative energy options and need > to rely on mitigation technologies. If our planet is in this severe > situation, then our belief is that we should not be starting from > scratch at investigating mitigation options. > > We’re looking forward to discussing these ideas and will post more > about them here later this year. > > Todd Bishop <http://www.techflash.com/> > > July 11th, 2009 at 16:04 | #1 > <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=126#comment-192> > > Reply <javascript:void(0);> | Quote <javascript:void(0);> > > Pablos, thanks for providing some extra explanation. I’ve posted a > follow-up on TechFlash (http://bit.ly/zx5ZK) so that more people will > have this additional context. > > Also in that post are more comments from the University of Miami’s > David Nolan, questioning whether the concept would work as outlined in > the patent filings. Would be great to hear your thoughts on those > questions, as well. > > http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Bill_Gates_hurricane_stopper_would_be_Plan_C_for_humanity_50544257.html > > > Bill Gates' hurricane stopper would be 'Plan C' for humanity > > By Todd Bishop on July 11, 2009 at 3:50 PM PDT > > Comments (3) > <http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Bill_Gates_hurricane_stopper_would_be_Plan_C_for_humanity_50544257.html#comments> > > | Permalink > <http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Bill_Gates_hurricane_stopper_would_be_Plan_C_for_humanity_50544257.html> > > Environment > <http://www.techflash.com/search/?catSet=5399&catID=260402> | Bill > Gates <http://www.techflash.com/search/?catSet=5404&catID=231534> | > Nathan Myhrvold > <http://www.techflash.com/search/?catSet=5404&catID=238694> | > Microsoft <http://www.techflash.com/search/?catSet=5424&catID=232039> > > The environmental impact was one concern raised by readers following > our post detailing the hurricane-supression system > <http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/One_force_of_nature_vs_another_Bill_Gates_wants_to_stop_hurricanes_50385622.html#comments> > > proposed by Bill Gates, former Microsoft chief techology officer > Nathan Myhrvold and others. In response, one of the people working on > the project in Myhrvold's Intellectual Ventures Lab has posted an > explanation on the company's site > <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=126>. > > "This type of technology is not something humankind would try as a > 'Plan A' or 'Plan B,' " writes Paul "Pablos" Holman in the > Intellectual Ventures post. "These inventions are a 'Plan C' where > humans decide that we have exhausted all of our behavior changing and > alternative energy options and need to rely on mitigation > technologies. If our planet is in this severe situation, then our > belief is that we should not be starting from scratch at investigating > mitigation options." > > Pablos also posted that as a comment on our original post > <http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=126>. > > David Nolan, the University of Miami professor we spoke with for the > initial post, has since expressed additional doubt about whether the > concept would work at all. The plan, as outlined in patent filings > <http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220090173386%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20090173386&RS=DN/20090173386> > > by Gates, Myhrvold and others, appears to rely largely on a technique > for pushing warm water down to alter the surface temperature of the > ocean, rather than bringing cold water up. > > Here's what Nolan says: > > If that's the case, it's even less likely to work. Some of the warm > water would be replaced by cold water coming up from below, but some > of it would be replaced by warm water converging from outside the > region. Also, it's very hard for cold water to come up from below, as > it is cooler and therefore more dense than the warm water above. (When > warm fluid lies over cold fluid, as in 99.99% of the ocean, vertical > motions are strongly suppressed. This is called "stratification.") > Similarly, it's hard for warm water to go down. The idea of using > breaking waves to make a column of water that is slightly higher than > sea level is a good one, but because it is warmer, the whole column > may not even weigh more than the surrounding water even if it is taller. > > Pablos from Intellectual Ventures Lab notes that the company will be > providing more information about the project later this year, so apart > from the environmental questions, it will be interesting to see how > they address the issues Nolan raises. > > > > > -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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