Peter: Here is a crazy idea. What if air was released under the ice. It would produce an insulating layer under the ice at least until it dissolved into the water. No harm whatsoever. All that would be needed is a pump to take air out of the atmosphere and release it under the ice. Lots of little problems to solve but it would be a way to implement your under the ice insulator idea.
-gene Eugene I. Gordon (908) 233 4677 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter Read Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:00 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; Leslie Field Subject: [geo] Re: Ice911 Re Gene's comment a few weeks back, further below How does $100m/1000 sq Km of (Arctic) insolation compare with $2,000m/TW?? Another thing, Re that shrinking and thinning Arctic ice-pack, is that the warming oceans are presumably largely to blame? ablating away at the underside of the ice-pack.?? So maybe send a nuclear sub in to spray plastic foam upwards to insulate the underside of the icepack? Pretty cheap again I would guess (given that the sub's have already been paid for and may become redundant if Obama and Putin can get along OK) But I expect someone will find a unique and indispensible ecosystem on the underside of the icepack. Or that the seals will get indigestion on the foam And hard to see anything to patent in there, so I guess it's got to be $2b/TW 'Spect they can raise the money if they can promise the polar bears a nice migration route from Alaska to Greenland And maybe save the Inuit's coastline Too bad about the North West passage but maybe the Ruskies will keep the NE passage open and maybe one passage is enough Peter On Aug 17, 9:45 pm, "Eugene I. Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Peter: > > > > Spray foam insulation in houses typically costs 90 cents pr square meter > > including installation. I would guess the large volume cost for spraying > > bursts of foam on the ocean by a ship to make round floating plates > > would be > > about 10 cents per square meter or $100 K per square kilometer or $100 > > million for 1000 square kilometers on the ocean as say 1 square meter > > roughly circular pieces made by timed spray bursts. They would float > > freely > > and and remain on the surface and certainly reduce heat absorption even > > if > > they are covered by bird droppings, but in fact that might stay > > reasonably > > clean. They would be moved naturally out of the way of small and large > > boats > > and even if they break into pieces they would be effective in keeping > > sunlight from being absorbed by the water. Since they are insulating the > > effective surface reflectivity would be 100% even if they got dirty. > > Absorbed energy would be simply radiated away and not heat the water > > underneath unless it splashes over the warmed surface. > > > > If it indeed would cost no more than $100 million it would be a bargain > > if > > it made ice form by keeping the ocean water from heating. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Salter" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "Leslie Field" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:00 AM Subject: [geo] Re: Ice911 > > Alvia > > We should not knock each other's new ideas too early but if I multiply > the area of the earth by 3.7 watt/m2 I get 1884 TW . > > At $2 bn/TW the ICE 911 scheme does look a bit expensive. Are you > quoting the figures correctly? > > Stephen > > Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design > School of Engineering and Electronics > University of Edinburgh > Mayfield Road > Edinburgh EH9 3JL > Scotland > tel +44 131 650 5704 > fax +44 131 650 5702 > Mobile 07795 203 195 > [email protected] > http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs > > > > Alvia Gaskill wrote: >> I wasn't aware of ICE911 as it hasn't been discussed before in the >> many discussions of geoengineering that have occurred in the last >> several years. The concept is rather vaguely described at the website: >> >> http://www.ice911.org/Ice911%20Update%20072109.pdf >> >> and appears to involve the use of plastic or some other kind of >> polymeric material to cover glaciers, floating sea ice and sea water, >> although the project leader says plastic is not involved. Stephen >> Schneider, long time critic and opponent of geoengineering (and this >> would be considered geoengineering) is however, involved as an >> advisor. http://www.ice911.org/team.shtml Like they say, everybody's >> a believer in a foxhole, 9-15-09 being the date for the third worst >> loss of sea ice on record and should by all reason increase the number >> of foxhole occupants. >> >> The pdf page says that $2 billion of Ice911 raw materials can offset 1 >> Terawatt of incoming solar flux. Wonder if the absorption of >> upwelling solar IR is factored into this? >> >> I can't provide much else in the way of details of the idea, but the >> website seems heavily weighted towards getting donations to make the >> project work. In today's post Madoff-Bush-Lehman Bros. world, >> contributions will be a little harder to come by without some facts to >> back them up, no matter who endorses the idea. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Peter Read <mailto:[email protected]> >> *To:* [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Cc:* Leslie Field <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:00 PM >> *Subject:* For info Fw: [geo] Re: Manifesto for Geoengineering >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Leslie Field <mailto:[email protected]> >> *To:* Peter Read <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Cc:* Leslie Field <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:26 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [geo] Re: Manifesto for Geoengineering >> >> Hi Peter, >> >> My email reply to you didn't post to the google group, as I'm not >> a member. Not sure that's an action item, just wanted to let you >> know I got a "bounce" notice from that address. >> >> Best regards, >> Leslie >> >> >> >> Leslie Field wrote: >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> Thanks for the cc. One quick clarification is that Ice911 >>> doesn't use floating plastic islands. >>> (Two problems with plastics in general: plastics can have some >>> unwanted eco impacts, and plastics can suppress evaporation.) >>> >>> Our small-scale tests have been very encouraging so far, and >>> we're working on getting some larger-scale tests in place this >>> season. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Leslie >>> >>> Leslie Field, Ph.D. >>> Ice911 Research Corporation >>> www.ice911.org >>> [email protected] >>> (650) 823-2020 >>> [[Snipped - PR]] >> >> >> > > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this incoming message. 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