Resurrecting a (very) old thread regarding Kirkby et. al. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v476/n7361/abs/nature10343.html I'm interested to know whether the influence of ammonia in the formation of CCN has escaped the attention of geoengineers. Might it be the case that ammonia levels in the atmosphere need to be enhanced to elevate or sustain the ability of stratospheric sulphur aerosols?
Does anyone have any data regarding any ammonia 'holes' which could prove problematic for the formation of aerosols from vapours? A On 20 September 2011 21:38, Michael Hayes <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Oliver, > > As you know, we could not increase/decrease that type of radiation. However, > there possible is a way (or two) in which this global process can be used in > a targeted way to produce second and third order effects which would have > global climate significance. > > With the new patent laws just signed into law, our ability to openly > disclose ....new and useful...concepts is now brutally handicapped. The > concepts using atmospheric electrics are potentially patentable and thus can > not be even closely covered here. Remember, it is not who invents but who > files first that takes priority. > > It would take close to $80G and 6 months to prepare the concept(s) for > patent application. If anyone reading this group would like to sponsor the > effort, I would look forward to putting the filed application up for a full > and rigorous critique by this group. I have good reason to believe it would > pass muster. > > I can only tell you that the concept(s) is relatively low tech, easily > produced and would have limited collateral effects and could be > easily/quickly modified for situational/seasonal needs and cost no more than > $1B per year. > > Sorry for the lame answer (and law). > > > Michael > > > > > On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 5:21 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Dear Michael, >> >> Can we, or would we want to, increase or decrease cosmic rays entering our >> atmosphere? Can we geoengineer this? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Oliver Wingenter >> >> >> On 9/17/2011 5:24 PM, Michael Hayes wrote: >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> Dr. Latham, with the greatest respect, please allow me to bring something >> to the table which I believe is relevant. Andrew asked for some needed >> changes and I thank him for giving an opportunity to polish this up. >> >> In a way, cosmic rays may play a role in CCN. R.G. Harrison (and others) >> covers how cosmic rays energize the ionosphere which then affects cloud >> formation. I have attached his paper for review. The main quote in the >> abstract is: >> >> "Cosmic rays are the principal source of atmospheric ions away from the >> continental boundary layer: the ions formed permit a vertical conduction >> current to flow in the fair weather part of the global circuit. Through the >> (inverse) solar modulation of cosmic rays, the resulting columnar ionisation >> changes may allow the global circuit to convey a solar influence to >> meteorological phenomena of the lower atmosphere. Electrical effects on >> non-thunderstorm clouds have been proposed to occur via the ionassisted >> formation of ultrafine aerosol, which can grow to sizes able to act as cloud >> condensation nuclei, or through the increased ice nucleation capability of >> charged aerosols." >> >> There is a Google Earth like website which you can watch the ionosphere in >> practical real time which was developed for companies dealing with polar >> radio transmissions. Here is the link. >> >> >> http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30apr_4dionosphere/ >> >> For those interested in a broad overview of research interests in the area >> of atmospheric electrical effects on climate I have attached a paper by E.R. >> Williams (GlobCir.pdf). Here is the abstract: >> >> >> "Research topics on the global electrical circuit are addressed that have >> received attention in recent >> >> years. These topics include the diurnal variation of the global circuit, >> surface measurements of >> >> electric >> >> field at high latitude, the annual variation, the semiannual variation, >> the role of lightning as >> >> a source for the global circuit, the electrical contribution of mesoscale >> convective systems, the >> >> possible effect of thunderstorms on the E and F regions of the ionosphere, >> the evidence for a global >> >> circuit impact from nuclear weapons tests, the controversy over long-term >> variations, the response >> >> to climate change, and >> >> finally the impact of the global circuit on climate." >> >> >> >> >> Although C.T.R. Willson began the modern investigation of atmospheric >> electrical phenomenon, it has been only the last few decades that the >> broader aspects have been looked at and even today there is much to >> understand. On page 149 (col 2), in an indirect way, Williams points out the >> potential for this field of work to eventually provide a means for tracking >> global warming due to: >> >> >> "On many time scales, abundant evidence has accumulated that the global >> circuit should amplify with increasing temperature" >> >> Williams goes on to explain the needed work to realize that aspect and to >> more fully understand the cause and effect of climate change on the global >> circuit and vice verse. >> >> Having a global means for tracking climate change could help long term >> climate engineering efforts for obvious reasons. In section 12, Williams >> points out the efforts of Harrison and Tensley in investigating if the >> global circuit can effect climate change. This field needs more attention. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Michael >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:06 AM, John Latham < >>> > [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Hello All, >>> >> >>> >> This is an interesting and careful study, which I strongly suspect >>> >> will >>> >> turn out to be irrelevant to geo-engineering (or natural clouds).. >>> >> >>> >> Atmospheric clouds form, in an unstable atmosphere, when the relative >>> >> humidity in a rising parcel or plume of moist air increases (as a >>> >> consequence of cooling and expansion) to 100%. Except in very special >>> >> circumstances there are always particles (cloud condensation nuclei, >>> >> CCN). on which cloud droplets will be activated. Usually, there are >>> >> many more aerosol on which droplets are not activated, because the >>> >> favoured ones have lower activation thresholds. The cosmic ray >>> >> generated particles will have extremely fierce competition re droplet >>> >> activation, and as the authors point out, they are very small and so >>> >> unlikely to be strong candidates for activation.authors of the paper >>> >> surmise >>> >> >>> >> If I remember correctly [always doubtful] CTR Wilson did some >>> >> beautiful experiments - almost 100 years ago - on cloud >>> >> condensation nuclei in his cloud chamber, and found that the passage >>> >> of cosmic rays through the supersaturated environment produced >>> >> small droplets: But this occurred only when all aerosol particles had >>> >> rained out, so the supersaturation was much higher than occurs is >>> >> natural clouds.. >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, John. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> John Latham >>> >> Address: P.O. Box 3000,MMM,NCAR,Boulder,CO 80307-3000 >>> >> Email: [email protected] or [email protected] >>> >> Tel: (US-Work) 303-497-8182 or (US-Home) 303-444-2429 >>> >> or (US-Cell) 303-882-0724 or (UK) 01928-730-002 >>> >> http://www.mmm.ucar.edu/people/latham >>> >> ________________________________________ >>> >> From: [email protected] >>> >> [[email protected]] on >>> >> behalf of Andrew Lockley [[email protected]] >>> >> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 6:07 PM >>> >> To: geoengineering >>> >> Subject: [geo] Cloud condensation nuclei research >>> >> >>> >> doi:10.1038/news.2011.504 >>> >> >>> >> http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110824/full/news.2011.504.html >>> >> >>> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14637647 >>> >> >>> >> Results from an experiment built to study how clouds form suggests >>> >> that our >>> >> knowledge of this subject may need to be revised, Nature journal >>> >> reports. >>> >> >>> >> Tiny particles (aerosols) form the basis of the "seeds" from which >>> >> clouds >>> >> grow. >>> >> >>> >> These seeds form when sulphuric acid and ammonia molecules cluster >>> >> together >>> >> - and cosmic rays may help this happen. >>> >> >>> >> But these ingredients create only a tiny fraction of the cloud seeds >>> >> formed >>> >> in the atmosphere. >>> >> >>> >> The result surprised Dr Jasper Kirkby who led the research. He told >>> >> BBC >>> >> News: "We've shown sulphuric acid and ammonia can't account for >>> >> nucleation >>> >> (the very early stages of cloud seed formation) observed in the lower >>> >> atmosphere. >>> >> >>> >> "We've found that this can only account for a tenth to a thousandth of >>> >> the >>> >> rate that's observed. So it's clear from this first set of >>> >> measurements that >>> >> our present treatment of aerosols in climate models needs to be >>> >> revised >>> >> quite a lot." >>> >> >>> >> Professor Mike Lockwood of Reading University, UK, concurs: "Something >>> >> else, as yet unknown, is helping enhance the nucleation rates there. >>> >> Depending on its source, this could even be unexpected additional >>> >> (human-caused) climate forcing or feedback effect (on the climate)," >>> >> he >>> >> explained. >>> >> >>> >> The aim of the study is to create a better understanding of how clouds >>> >> form >>> >> and in particular the role of cosmic rays. Dr Kirkby said that the >>> >> work will >>> >> lead to better computer models of how the Earth's climate is >>> >> influenced by >>> >> clouds. >>> >> >>> >> "Even though aerosols and clouds are very important (in climate >>> >> modelling) >>> >> the basic numbers haven't been measured properly and we're doing >>> >> that," he >>> >> said. >>> >> >>> >> The so-called Cloud experiment is based at the European Organization >>> >> for >>> >> Nuclear Research (Cern), just outside Geneva. It consists of a large >>> >> stainless steel chamber filled with highly purified air into which >>> >> scientists can infuse trace amounts of the vapours they believe to be >>> >> involved in the formation of aerosols that can grow to become cloud >>> >> seeds. >>> >> >>> >> Cosmic role >>> >> >>> >> A beam of particles from one of Cern's particle accelerators provides >>> >> a >>> >> controllable source of artificial cosmic rays. >>> >> >>> >> Clouds play an important part in determining global temperatures as >>> >> they >>> >> reflect a proportion of the Sun's heat back into space. However, the >>> >> formation of the aerosols that seed clouds is not well understood and >>> >> is a >>> >> source of uncertainty in climate models. >>> >> >>> >> In particular, researchers want to understand the precise role played >>> >> by >>> >> cosmic rays. These are charged sub-atomic particles that hit the >>> >> Earth's >>> >> atmosphere from space. These create more charged particles - which may >>> >> enhance the formation of cloud seeds. >>> >> >>> >> The first results from the Cloud experiment at Cern show that cosmic >>> >> rays >>> >> cause a ten-fold increase in the formation rate of nanometre-sized >>> >> aerosol >>> >> particles. However, Dr Kirkby stressed that these particles are still >>> >> far >>> >> too small to seed clouds and so it is premature to conclude that >>> >> cosmic rays >>> >> have a significant influence on climate. >>> >> >>> >> The number of cosmic rays that hit the Earth is reduced when the Sun's >>> >> activity is high. It has been proposed that reduced cosmic rays may >>> >> lead to >>> >> reduced cloud formation, causing global temperatures to rise. >>> >> >>> >> Some climate change "sceptics" claim that this process, rather than >>> >> the >>> >> burning of fossil fuels, can explain much of the Earth's recent rise >>> >> in >>> >> temperature. >>> >> >>> >> Climate scientists point out that there is evidence to show that the >>> >> sustained rise in global temperatures over the past 15 years cannot be >>> >> explained by cosmic ray activity. They also point to a vast body of >>> >> research >>> >> pointing to rising carbon dioxide (CO2) levels to be the cause. >>> >> According to >>> >> Professor Lockwood, it is very unlikely that variations in cosmic rays >>> >> have >>> >> played a significant role in recent warming. >>> >> >>> >> "The result that will get climate change sceptics excited is that they >>> >> have >>> >> found that through the influence of sulphuric acid, ionisation can >>> >> enhance >>> >> the rate of water droplet growth. Does this mean that cosmic rays can >>> >> produce cloud? No," he told BBC News. >>> >> >>> >> Many arguments >>> >> >>> >> Professor Lockwood says that the air-induced aerosols only grew to >>> >> about 2 >>> >> nanometres. To influence incoming or outgoing radiation to Earth, >>> >> droplets >>> >> must be of the order of 100 nanometres (nm). The growth rates would be >>> >> really slow from 2 to 100nm because there simply is not enough >>> >> sulphuric >>> >> acid in the atmosphere. >>> >> >>> >> "There are a great many arguments as to why the cosmic ray cloud >>> >> effect is >>> >> not a major driver of climate change and these results do not yet >>> >> impinge on >>> >> those arguments," he said. >>> >> >>> >> Nevertheless, it seems that air ions generated by cosmic rays can >>> >> helping >>> >> cloud formation get started. Neither the role of aerosols or the >>> >> effects of >>> >> cosmic rays are well understood and this limits the ability of >>> >> computer >>> >> models to predict how the Earth's climate will change. >>> >> >>> >> The Cloud experiment is aiming to settle these questions. >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >> Groups >>> >> "geoengineering" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> [email protected]. >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >> Groups >>> >> "geoengineering" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> [email protected]. >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > *Michael Hayes* >>> > *360-708-4976* >>> > http://www.voglerlake.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Michael Hayes >> 360-708-4976 >> http://www.voglerlake.com >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "geoengineering" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> Oliver Wingenter >> Assoc. Prof. of Chemistry >> Research Scientist >> Geophysical Research Center >> New Mexico Tech >> 801 Leroy Place >> Socorro, NM 87801 > > > > > -- > Michael Hayes > 360-708-4976 > http://www.voglerlake.com > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
