I disagree. We have to sharpen our swords against weak, ill informed arguments on a continual basis.
Dealing with noisy, ignorant people is vital. We can't leave the public discourse to Fox News and the chemtrails lot. A On 23 Feb 2014 23:10, "Hawkins, Dave" <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't know Vandana Shiva and have no comment about her. But there is a > syndrome on this list that seems to me a waste off our time: every so > often an outrageous, uninformed, unsupported set of statements made by some > geoengineerimg critic is posted and that triggers a series of indignant > responses. > I think we need to accept that there are aspects of the geoengineering > topic that stimulate both off-base critiques and an appetite in the media > to publish them. Spending time on this list reacting to those is a > distraction. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 23, 2014, at 3:05 PM, "Jamais Cascio" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I spoke at an event in Italy that also featured Vandana Shiva a few years > back (the event topic was food and sustainability). In the brief time I had > to speak with her, I found her incredibly frustrating — she seems to have > absolutely no desire to listen to anyone else. Not just in terms of arguing > different positions, but even in terms of sources of information with which > she’s not familiar. And with her flock of worshipful attendees, she never > hears contrary arguments for long (and, to that end, she left the event > right after speaking). > > At this point in her life, she epitomizes the syndrome where all analysis > flows from ideology, not information. > > -=-=-=-=-= > Jamais Cascio > openthefuture.com<http://openthefuture.com> > @cascio > > > On Feb 23, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Ken Caldeira <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > It is amazing how people gain currency making completely unfounded > statements. > > "Well for some people the intention is really one of making others suffer." > > Who exactly has the intention of making others suffer? What is the > supporting evidence? > > The years of government lying about secret programs, and the trend towards > allowing good politics to triumph over good policy (which has led to > right-wing attacks on well-established scientific fact), has created a > situation in which shared facts are few and far between. > > How do we move the debate to a point where we agree on established facts, > and allow our differences be based on differences in values and differences > in uncertain assessments of likely outcomes of possible courses of action? > > Without shared facts, there is little room for fruitful discussion. > > > > > _______________ > Ken Caldeira > > Carnegie Institution for Science > Dept of Global Ecology > 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA > +1 650 704 7212 [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> > http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab > https://twitter.com/KenCaldeira > > Assistant: Dawn Ross <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> > > > > On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Andrew Lockley <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > http://www.globalresearch.ca/destroying-planet-earth-geoengineering-is-the-ultimate-hubris-without-democratic-control/5370179 > > Vandana Shiva > Vandana Shiva, a world-renowned environmental thinker, activist, > physicist, feminist, philosopher of science, writer and science policy > advocate, is the Director of The Research Foundation for Science, > Technology and Natural Resource Policy. She serves as an ecology advisor to > several organizations including the Third World Network and the Asia > Pacific People’s Environment Network. > > TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW > > NoGeoingegneria: So, first, thank you very much for your time because > you’re an incredible woman and you always have so much time for everybody. > and it’s great. We wanted to speak a little bit about geoengineering with > you. It’s something that embraces everything: food and water and what is > happening now in the world in a situation of climate change, and great > change, and risk of collapse at every level. I saw the interview you had > with Amy Goodman. So, first, what is, for you, at this moment, the role of > geoengineering? > > 00:55 Vandana: the role of geo-engineering should, in a world of > responsibility, in a world of scientifically enlightened decision making > and ecological understanding, it should be zero.There is no role for > geo-engeneering. Because what is geoengineering but extending the > engineering paradigm? There have been engineered parts of the earth, and > aspects of ecosystems and organisms through genetical engineering: the > massive dam building, the re-routing of rivers. These were all elements of > geoengineering at the level of particular places and we have recognized two > things: one, that when you don’t take into account the way ecological > systems work, then you do damage. Everyone knows that in effect climate > change is a result of that engineering paradigm. We could replace people > with fossil fuels, have higher and higher levels of industrialization, of > agriculture, of production, without thinking of the green-house gases we > were admitting, and climate change is really the pollution of the > engineering paradigm, when fossil fuels drove industrialism. To now offer > that same mindset as a solution is to not take seriously what Einstein > said: that you can’t solve the problems by using the same mindset that > caused them. So, the idea of engineering is an idea of mastery. And today > the role that we are being asked to play is a role based on informed > humanity. > > 2:45 NoGeoingegneria: In my eyes geoengineering started in the 50s with > atomic tests, because in this period they started to make geoengineering of > the atmosphere of earth in a global sense, in a bigger sense, and a lot of > projects in the 50s started to organize the earth, the planet, in a new > way, with a new idea of engineering really the whole planet. With the power > of atomic bomb scientists made a shifting in their mind, in my eyes. So in > this period, in the 50′s weather modification also started very > energically. It is part of geo engineering, and you have here the map of > the ETC group, in the whole world, they are doing it, and you cannot do > local modifications without changing the whole system. I know in India, in > Thailand, and Australia weather modification maybe is more discussed, more > open than in Europe. For example in Italy they made weather modification in > the 80′s and people don’t know it. What do you think about the role of > weather modification in a sense of geoengineering for food, for water, for > the whole system? > > 4:21 VandanaWeather modification is a very small part of geo engineering. > Geoengineering right now is the hubris of saying: “all this climate change, > and we’re living in the anthropocene age and now human beings will be the > shapers of our future, that totally control the overall functions of not > just our planet, but our relationship with other planets, so many of the > solutions offered have been putting reflectors in the sky to send the sun > back as if the sun was a problem rather than the very basis of life, or to > put pollutants into the atmosphere in order to create a layer of pollution > that would stop the sun from shining. But the instability of the climate > that is the result of the greenhouse effect will just be aggravated by > these interventions. Now weather modifications done in a narrow-minded way, > to say “we are not getting rain so let us precipitate rain artificially so > that agriculture doesn’t fail” is something that for example the Chinese > did for the olympics. They made sure there would be no rain during the > Olympics. It is a lower level of hubris than the larger project of > geoengineering. > > 5:47 you know this map…..? > > 5:49 Vandana yes of course i know Etcetera. > > 5:52 N: and you see that the ETC Group also published only a part, it’s > only a part because everyday something else is coming out, in the whole > world they are doing it, so if you make in a lot of points. > > 6:07 V: it’s not too much the points > > 6:08 N: what does it mean for weather extremes for example? > > 6:11 V: the first thing is it creates more instability, and we are dealing > with instability, therefore we must deal more with actions that create > insurance against instability, rather than aggravating the instability. > It’s like I’m driving a car and I know there’s a precipice there, I should > put the car in reverse and then turn into another direction. What geo > engineering is doing is saying “let’s put our foot on the accelerator”. And > the precipice is climate instability, climate unpredictability. And at the > root of it is the false idea that these silly little actions will be able > to control and regulate the weather and climate. But the second most > important part of why geo engineering is so so wrong is that is ultimate > expression of patriarchal irresponsibility. Patriarchy is based on > appropriating rights and leaving responsibility to others. In this case the > scientists who are playing these games, the who are investors financing it, > are all doing it without having any consent for these experiments, any > approval for these experiments, locally or globally, and worse, without > thinking of the consequences or what it can lead to, and without ever ever > being bound to responsibility. Therefore it is the ultimate expression of > all the destructive tendencies of patriarchy. > > 7:50 N: Yeah, and you see you can take one name Edward Teller. He comes > from the atomic bomb. He had the idea of controlling the weather by atomic > bomb. He proposed the shield for sun radiation management, so the same > persons, the same power structure is organizing this type of management of > the planet and of space. So, you know about the intention of control ….? > > 8:22 V: Well for some people the intention is really one of making others > suffer. And therefore aspects of geo- engineering are about links with > military warfare. How do you alter the climate so that you can just make > rain fall or fail in a particular area and let agriculture suffer. But in > other cases, even if there isn’t that military intention of harm to the > other there is an ignorance….. > > 8:56 N: There is also economic interest …… > > 8:58 V: Not all, the reason that there is such a battalion of scientists > behind it….. > > 9:00 N: You know oil and not soil, the food and water ……. > > 9:05 V: The people are pushing it have a money interest. The people who > are pushing it have a military interest. , people are pushing to have a > military interest. The players merely have the arrogance that ” I have the > solution”. And it’s the combination of stupidity combined with the > arrogance of the little players, and the evil projects of the ones who > control it, that combination is what makes it toxic. Because if the > scientific community could only recognize its responsibility to society and > the planet and say “I will not be part of your games”, which is how > Scientists for Social Responsibility was created, which is how the group > that started to monitor the whole nuclear issue, those were all scientists. > This is a marriage of stupid scientists with evil minds, and we need > scientists with responsibility to be the counterforce to say this is not > science, just as we need in genetic engineering. And it is as the community > of scientists who really know the science start to speak more and organize > better, that the stupid scientists of the biotech industry will quieten > down. And biotech and geo engineering have the same mindset, of > engineering, of power, of control, of mastery of nature > > 10:30 N: you spoke also of the dams. It’s big geoengineering also in India > and in the whole world and there are now the big interests of water and > here, the last time we had an interview with Pat Mooney he said that big > dams, energy production, water control, and weather control, it’s one > thing. So it’s not only a small intervention to have crops. It’s something > more. > > 11:06 V: No as I said it’s the ultimate hubris, that’s what it is! Hubris > on a planetary scale! > > 11:19 N: Uh….. what do you think about the fact they will spray nano > particles? That’s the program! > > 11:29 V: Each of these issues has a particular aspect thats different but > i think those particular aspects are very small compared to the overall > damage and the overall irresponsibility. For me the first issue is, how > dare you do this. How dare you. That has to be humanity’s response. Then > the rest of the little thing of how nano particles can harm or have too > much sulphur in the atmosphere can harm, those are specific details but > this is a civilizational issue. And in civilizational issues you don’t look > at the tiny details as the debate. You have to look at the big picture! > > Transcript by lukinski&trishy > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]<mailto: > geoengineering%[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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