Dave
Water vapour is indeed a strong greenhouse gas and retains about 2.5
times more heat but fortunately it condenses back to liquid much more
easily than CO2.
Kevin Trenberth 1987 gives the average mass of water in the atmosphere
as 1.46 x 10^16 kg which you can compare with annual jet fuel
consumption. This would be a liquid level of 2.86 centimetre of the
earth's surface. This amount will increase as we warm the sea. Most of
it is quite low in the atmosphere.
The evaporation /condensation residence time is about 10 days so the
water comes out very easily. Let me know if you would like papers about
a way that might do this removal by cooling the sea surface. The method
would also help Arctic ice, coral, hurricanes, sea level rise but nobody
seems to want to do any of these.
Stephen
Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design. School of Engineering,
University of Edinburgh, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh EH9 3DW, Scotland
[email protected], Tel +44 (0)131 650 5704, Cell 07795 203 195,
WWW.homepages.ed.ac.uk/shs, YouTube Jamie Taylor Power for Change
On 25/07/2019 20:57, Dave Stanley wrote:
Alan/Stephen, I follow the geoengineering site as an environmentalist
particularly interested in global warming. Also particularly
interested in this contrail issue – as an ex-fighter pilot many years
ago.
My recollection is that contrails are also, under certain Met
conditions, emitted by piston engined aircraft within the troposphere,
and of course jet engines in the stratosphere. Understand the point
about uncertainty as to the net global warming effect of contrails.
However, I understand that water vapour is responsible for around 65%
of the greenhouse effect.
And that has temperature decreases with altitude within the
troposphere but increases in the stratosphere there is little exchange
of air mass between the two?
Does this therefore imply that aircraft flying within the stratosphere
and burning fossil fuels are increasing both water vapour and carbon
dioxide levels in the stratosphere?
Suggests that the global warming impact exceeds that of
straightforward CO2 emitted per kilogram of fuel? Or is this allegedly
account for with the IPCC 1.8 X factor?
Impact in ozone in the stratosphere?
Tread Lightly!
Dave
Dave Stanley
Holly House
Camp Lane
Grimley
Worcester
WR26LX
01905 641529
07966528564
www.tochallengethethinking.co.uk <http://www.tochallengethethinking.co.uk>
www.pastureforlife.org <http://www.pastureforlife.org>
On 15 Jul 2019, at 15:31, Stephen Salter <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Alan
1. The contrailscience site you give is an excellent source about
detecting contrails but my question was how you can tell no contrails
from very clear skies. I show two pictures below. Which is which?
<ifefmhjolbchfpci.png>
2. I suggest that clarity is 'clearness' in skies, language and optics.
3. The mention of a factor 30 was in the 2002 Nature paper.
https://www.nature.com/articles/418601aSnips are
Snips are:
<jdbnmchnbhkkdmjm.png>
<aplcnimkomblkdag.png>
A relevant factor might be the financial consequences of a reduced
permission to burn hydrocarbons in the atmosphere.
A possibly relevant paper is attached.
Stephen
Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design. School of Engineering,
University of Edinburgh, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh EH9 3DW, Scotland
[email protected], Tel +44 (0)131 650 5704, Cell 07795 203 195,
WWW.homepages.ed.ac.uk/shs, YouTube Jamie Taylor Power for Change
On 15/07/2019 14:05, Alan Robock wrote:
1. Contrailscience.com <http://Contrailscience.com>
2. What is clarity?
3. Where? When? I have never heard this claim before. Please show
us the data.
Alan
Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor
Associate Editor, /Reviews of Geophysics/
Department of Environmental Sciences Phone: +1-848-932-5751
Rutgers University E-mail: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
14 College Farm Road http://people.envsci.rutgers.edu/robock
New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA ☮ http://twitter.com/AlanRobock
On Jul 15, 2019, at 2:45 AM, Stephen Salter <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Alan
1. How can you tell the difference between clear weather and no
contrails?
2. Do contrails affect weather clarity?
3. Is there a reason why it was the clearest of clear weather for
30 years?
Stephen
Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design. School of Engineering,
University of Edinburgh, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh EH9 3DW, Scotland
[email protected], Tel +44 (0)131 650 5704,
WWW.homepages.ed.ac.uk/shs, YouTube Jamie Taylor Power for Change
On 14/07/2019 15:51, Alan Robock wrote:
See also
https://www.nature.com/news/2008/081231/full/news.2008.1335.html for
a discussion of several papers on this.
Alan
Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor
Associate Editor, /Reviews of Geophysics/
Department of Environmental Sciences Phone: +1-848-932-5751
Rutgers University E-mail: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
14 College Farm Road http://people.envsci.rutgers.edu/robock
New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA ☮ http://twitter.com/AlanRobock
On Jul 14, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Alan Robock
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
The reported warming after 9/11 was actually a change in diurnal
temperature range. Kalkstein and Balling found that it was just
clear weather and not lack of contrails.
https://www.int-res.com/articles/cr2002/cr2004/26/c026p001.pdf
Alan
Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor
Associate Editor, /Reviews of Geophysics/
Department of Environmental Sciences Phone:
+1-848-932-5751
Rutgers University E-mail: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
14 College Farm Road http://people.envsci.rutgers.edu/robock
New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA ☮ http://twitter.com/AlanRobock
On Jul 14, 2019, at 7:00 AM, Seb Eastham <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi John ,
Inconveniently, they do both. They reflect and scatter incoming
solar radiation (cooling effect) but also absorb outgoing
longwave (warming). At night they are purely warming, but during
the day the net effect can be either - depending strongly on
whether there are clouds beneath them (decreases cooling
benefit), the surface albedo (sea is dark so contrail benefits
are greater), and the surface temperature. Kärcher wrote an
excellent review article in 2018 (Formation and radiative
forcing of contrail cirrus) covering the degree of uncertainty
in all this - since we have very poor records of total coverage
and properties, the exact balance between warming and cooling is
also highly uncertain.
Regards,
Seb
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 08:40 john gorman <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
The report that got me into this was a research paper
showing that the lack of contrails just after 911 allowed a
warming of the atmosphere. So I came up with an idea to
increase and simulate the cooling effect of contrails. At
the time I had never heard of the this group or the word
geoengineering.
I now see in a recent post that contrails warm the earth.
Which is correct?
John Gorman
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
from it, send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering
<https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/5d29a2ee.1c69fb81.57666.3e93SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.google.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/5d29a2ee.1c69fb81.57666.3e93SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.google.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
<https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it, send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering
<https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAGb9uZsZgCSSaugj_KU8P%2BFt%2Ba14pBpAkzG1Gr3KJY%2BrDCbXQg%40mail.gmail.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAGb9uZsZgCSSaugj_KU8P%2BFt%2Ba14pBpAkzG1Gr3KJY%2BrDCbXQg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
<https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering
<https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/64EC2DB0-DC91-467E-9A46-2AC95EB607CC%40envsci.rutgers.edu
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/64EC2DB0-DC91-467E-9A46-2AC95EB607CC%40envsci.rutgers.edu?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
<https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering
<https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/899A4FCF-3516-49DC-84AB-F1B8810886F6%40envsci.rutgers.edu
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/899A4FCF-3516-49DC-84AB-F1B8810886F6%40envsci.rutgers.edu?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout
<https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/98726e6b-8232-cf38-f59b-9bb164bb6ac6%40ed.ac.uk
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/98726e6b-8232-cf38-f59b-9bb164bb6ac6%40ed.ac.uk?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering
<https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/98726e6b-8232-cf38-f59b-9bb164bb6ac6%40ed.ac.uk.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/654aed74-d750-6f7a-ac33-6c9c6e270c0d%40ed.ac.uk
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/654aed74-d750-6f7a-ac33-6c9c6e270c0d%40ed.ac.uk?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
<Salter hydrogen planes.pdf>
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/654aed74-d750-6f7a-ac33-6c9c6e270c0d%40ed.ac.uk.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/3f4e238c-64c3-11b2-566e-c80e7fbe821d%40ed.ac.uk.
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/3f4e238c-64c3-11b2-566e-c80e7fbe821d%40ed.ac.uk.
