Folks, I have a mixed response to this post by Ye. Those ideas I somewhat disagree with, or which require greater nuance, I respond to in bold print below.
> On 9 Sep 2023, at 3:15 pm, Ye Tao <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > First, I also applaud Anton for an excellent presentation and thank the whole > team at Operatioo Arktis for being excellent hosts. I thank you, Ron, for > your enthusiasm, which I sadly find problematic. Ron’s and our enthusiasm has > many legs to its' stool, several of which seem likely to be both feasible and > effective. This is far better than fatalism, denial, obstruction, BAU, mild > or delayed action, or apathy. > > A major learning, or rather realization, for many of us at Arctic Momentum is > how little we understand the science of SAI, MCB, and any of the many > proposed regional techniques presented at the conference. Some discussion > groups also mentioned that we don't yet have a clear idea on how to decide > among various climatic outcomes, even if assuming the science and engineering > eventually advance to such a point that climate and weather could be designed > with high fidelity. We cannot afford to wait for high fidelity. Nor do we > need to decide now on which are to be the specific climate interventions and > locales in which to deploy them. Our general state of ignorance inspired > my recent post about starting to develop "figure of merit function(s)" to > evaluate climate outcomes based on globally agreed upon targets ultimately > stemming from a set of morally robust values. A small group at > NOAC/HPAC/PRAG are now developing those very same figure of merit functions. > Given ubiquitous chasms in knowledge gaps, we would be mistakenly putting the > horse before the cart try leveraging the moment for the specific end of > getting SAI implemented. There are several NOAC-based methods that are safer > and often easier, cheaper and quicker to develop that is SAI. > > There is no skipping steps to good science and engineering, and SAI and MCB > are a couple decades of research away from acceptable scientific > understanding and technical readiness. I disagree, several NOAC methods might > well be sufficiently developed to warrant testing within just a few years. > There are so many known unknowns and known problems with SAI, some of which I > have mentioned before here on this forum and which have yet to be addressed. > But less so with some of the other methods. > > In the interim, there are a variety of local geoengineering methods that need > to be given priority. Global safety must be prioritized in our line of work. > In the emergency situation we find ourselves, and using gated, localised > testing, global safety means that some risks must be taken as they are far > less than not acting. One needs to balance risk and likely effect against > risk and likely effect, just as do professional risk managers. Promising > local methods include mechanically slowing down ice melting by raising > kinetic barriers, MEER for adaptive mitigation to help victims of our > excesses here and now, ice thickening methods to preserve annually average > albedo, and targeted preservation of Arctic ice by new methods Agreed, though > our figure of merit assessments may well rule out many such methods. I will > hopefully soon share in a HPAC talk. > > While collaboration and support by Finland, Norway, Canada, the US, [RUSSIA], > and Arctic indigenous peoples would be critically important, they are > insufficient for ensuring that modifying global climate is done in a > factually democratic fashion In an emergency situation democracies typically > delegate decisions to those best placed to make them, by the people and for > the people. While we know very little about SAI, what we do know is that > anything SAI with polar impact would have a global impact elsewhere. All > sovereign states need to be included in this conversation, at the very > beginning. But not where the effects of gated testing are likely to be > localised. Then, only early notification and published EIS’s should be > required. > > Since the science is simply not there. Let's start here. Experimental > science is where priority must be place, not computer simulations which not > event the coders trust. Right, but do not stop trying to model the effects. > It is insufficient to appear to be inclusive. I see a growing trend towards > building a facade of inclusiveness. It is suspect to fund a selected few > high profile and visible Global South researchers to participate in research > using computer codes developed by academics from the Northern, studying > specific methods proposed by a handful of individuals from the North. If we > were truly undertaking this endeavor for justice and a future worth fighting > for, we must do much more and much better. I repeat my words on emergency > situations. Inclusion is great if it can be achieved with little loss of > development speed. Moreover, as developing nations are likely to be first and > most adversely affected by global warming (Arctic nations excluded), these > are just the locales where early testing should take place - inclusively. > > Best > > Ye > > On 9/8/2023 6:08 PM, Ron Baiman wrote: >> Dear Anton et al., >> >> Excellent meeting! I'm really sorry that I missed it! I got the time wrong >> but just finished viewing the recording! >> >> I was going to ask a question related to a proposal to begin to test the SAI >> polar approach (proposed by the "Cornell SAI group") - direct cooling of the >> Arctic (and Antarctic - as they both need to tackled together for symmetry - >> see Bala reference in the paper) based on the International Space Station >> model. >> This could be approached as a method to try to quickly slow down or reverse >> Arctic and Antarctic melting and restore previous conditions as much as >> possible - along with other possible Direct Climate Cooling and intervention >> approaches. My thinking is that collaboration and support by Finland, >> Norway, Canada, the US and Arctic indigenous peoples would be critically >> important. It could be framed as a "save the poles" effort but could >> potentially be the platform to start a serious global climate cooling >> effort. >> >> Suggested comments to this proposal welcome!: >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o5xQogx1kKgD-QlM4MVPdWeL2BzBtwUm/view?usp=sharing >> >> Thank you all! >> >> Best, >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 10:20 AM <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> The recording of this meeting is at https://youtu.be/unPOcBY3idU >>> >>> >>> Thank you very much Anton for joining us. >>> >>> >>> From: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 9:00 PM >>> To: healthy-planet-action-coalition >>> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Planetary >>> Restoration' <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>; NOAC >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; >>> 'geoengineering' <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Anton Keskinen' >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> Subject: [geo] HPAC this week: ARCTIC MOMENTUM Conference >>> >>> >>> The Healthy Planet Action Coalition welcomes Mr Anton Keskinen, organiser >>> of the just completed Arctic Momentum Conference in Finland, as our guest >>> speaker this week. >>> >>> >>> Date: Thursday 7 September >>> >>> Time: 10pm Finland (=3pm EST, 8pm UK, 5am Friday Australia AEST) >>> >>> Duration: 90 minutes >>> >>> Link: >>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/88954851189?pwd=WVZoeTBnN3kyZFoyLzYxZ1JNbDFPUT09 >>> >>> >>> Anton will explain key outcomes from the Conference followed by discussion >>> with meeting participants. All welcome. >>> >>> Operaatio Arktis (operaatioarktis.fi/en <http://operaatioarktis.fi/en>) >>> organized the public event ARCTIC MOMENTUM on 31st August in Helsinki, >>> Finland, about the state of the Arctic, and why we should conduct more >>> research on climate interventions. >>> >>> Event page with more information on the high level goals, as well as the >>> program: https://www.operaatioarktis.fi/arcticmomentum >>> >>> Description >>> >>> “We are a group of climate activists, turned from the street movement to >>> advance and lobby for climate intervention research. Our goal is to >>> preserve the Arctic Summer Sea Ice. For that we urge the Finnish government >>> to take lead on the research needed. We are open for the possibility of >>> finding several complementing methods to achieve this – perhaps some direct >>> sea ice growth manipulation and SRM combined with the obvious emission >>> reductions and GHG removal. Part of our mission is to bring different >>> stakeholders and research teams together to enable visioning how climate >>> intervention methods could complement each other, instead of focusing on >>> debating which one is better or worse idea. >>> >>> The public session on 31st August is part of a larger three-day gathering, >>> where we bring together indigenous leaders, activists, scientists, >>> government officials and policy makers, to discuss who, if at all, should >>> we move forward with preserving the Arctic. >>> >>> One of our main messages is that we must shift from the old climate >>> paradigm (Climate Mitigation) to a new climate paradigm (Climate Repair). >>> The old paradigm is about reducing emissions, accepting the damage that's >>> unavoidable with emission cuts, and adapting when possible. The new >>> paradigm states that we must reduce emissions, and try to prevent and >>> repair the damage that's unavoidable even with sharp emission cuts, and >>> adapt when possible. While the old paradigm presents what we call in our >>> publication Arctic Endgame "politics of accepted victims", the new paradigm >>> is antidote for this. >>> >>> We aim to change this climate paradigm first in Finland, and then in the >>> whole World. >>> >>> You can read Arctic Endgame here: >>> https://www.operaatioarktis.fi/en/arctic-endgame >>> For those of you (I assume most) who cannot attend our public event on 31st >>> in person, the event will be streamed on our Youtube page: >>> https://www.youtube.com/@operaatioarktis2193 >>> >>> Follow us on >>> >>> Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/operaatioarktis/ >>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/OperaatioArktis >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OperaatioArktis >>> >>> Subscribe our newsletter on the bottom of our website: >>> operaatioarktis.fi/en <http://operaatioarktis.fi/en> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Robert Tulip >>> >>> https://www.healthyplanetaction.org/ >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "geoengineering" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/024001d9df1e%24fb765730%24f2630590%24%40rtulip.net >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/024001d9df1e%24fb765730%24f2630590%24%40rtulip.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "geoengineering" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/147901d9e268%240929c9b0%241b7d5d10%24%40rtulip.net >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/147901d9e268%240929c9b0%241b7d5d10%24%40rtulip.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC)" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/CAPhUB9DTULJvQO1eFgeTxsw%3DsHxMQuFw0UL6eWXdDxWNqS_ayg%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/CAPhUB9DTULJvQO1eFgeTxsw%3DsHxMQuFw0UL6eWXdDxWNqS_ayg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Healthy Planet Action Coalition (HPAC)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/192e2074-8cb9-91ab-2910-c7209f89b602%40rowland.harvard.edu > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/healthy-planet-action-coalition/192e2074-8cb9-91ab-2910-c7209f89b602%40rowland.harvard.edu?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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