Regards
Robert On 09/09/2023 12:20, 'Douglas Grandt' via Planetary Restoration wrote:
Thanks, Sev -I had similar reaction and you’ve expressed my thoughts more precisely and clearly.Especially your references to *gated, localised testing* while intensely monitoring for global responses, ramping up in discrete steps, making adjustments as appropriate.Cheers, Doug Sent from my iPhone (audio texting)On Sep 9, 2023, at 3:15 AM, 'Sev Clarke' via Planetary Restoration <[email protected]> wrote: Folks,I have a mixed response to this post by Ye. Those ideas I somewhat disagree with, or which require greater nuance, I respond to in bold print below.On 9 Sep 2023, at 3:15 pm, Ye Tao <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Ron,First, I also applaud Anton for an excellent presentation and thank the whole team at Operatioo Arktis for being excellent hosts. I thank you, Ron, for your enthusiasm, which I sadly find problematic. *Ron’s and our enthusiasm has many legs to its' stool, several of which seem likely to be both feasible and effective. This is far better than fatalism, denial, obstruction, BAU, mild or delayed action, or apathy.*A major learning, or rather realization, for many of us at Arctic Momentum is how little we understand the science of SAI, MCB, and any of the many proposed regional techniques presented at the conference. Some discussion groups also mentioned that we don't yet have a clear idea on how to decide among various climatic outcomes, _even if assuming_ the science and engineering eventually advance to such a point that climate and weather could be designed with high fidelity. *We cannot afford to wait for high fidelity. Nor do we need to decide now on which are to be the specific climate interventions and locales in which to deploy them. * Our general state of ignorance inspired my recent post about starting to develop "figure of merit function(s)" to evaluate climate outcomes based on globally agreed upon targets ultimately stemming from a set of morally robust values. *A small group at* *NOAC/HPAC/PRAG are now developing those very same figure of merit functions. *Given ubiquitous chasms in knowledge gaps, we would be mistakenly putting the horse before the cart try leveraging the moment for the specific end of getting SAI implemented. *There are several NOAC-based methods that are safer and often easier, cheaper and quicker to develop that is SAI. *There is no skipping steps to good science and engineering, and SAI and MCB are a couple decades of research away from acceptable scientific understanding and technical readiness. *I disagree, several NOAC methods might well be sufficiently developed to warrant testing within just a few years. * There are so many known unknowns and known problems with SAI, some of which I have mentioned before here on this forum and which have yet to be addressed. *But less so with some of the other methods.*In the interim, there are a variety of local geoengineering methods that need to be given priority. Global safety must be prioritized in our line of work. *In the emergency situation we find ourselves, and using gated, localised testing, global safety means that some risks must be taken as they are far less than not acting. One needs to balance risk and likely effect against risk and likely effect, just as do professional risk managers.* Promising local methods include mechanically slowing down ice melting by raising kinetic barriers, MEER for adaptive mitigation to help victims of our excesses here and now, ice thickening methods to preserve annually average albedo, and targeted preservation of Arctic ice by new methods *Agreed, though our figure of merit assessments may well rule out many such methods.* I will hopefully soon share in a HPAC talk.While collaboration and support by Finland, Norway, Canada, the US, *[RUSSIA*], and Arctic indigenous peoples would be critically important, they are insufficient for ensuring that modifying global climate is done in a factually democratic fashion *In an emergency situation democracies typically delegate decisions to those best placed to make them*, by the people and for the people. While we know very little about SAI, what we do know is that anything SAI with polar impact would have a global impact elsewhere. All sovereign states need to be included in this conversation, at the very beginning. *But not where the effects of gated testing are likely to be localised. Then, only early notification and published EIS’s should be required. *Since the science is simply not there. Let's start here. Experimental science is where priority must be place, not computer simulations which not event the coders trust. *Right, but do not stop trying to model the effects.* It is insufficient to appear to be inclusive. I see a growing trend towards building a facade of inclusiveness. It is suspect to fund a selected few high profile and visible Global South researchers to participate in research using computer codes developed by academics from the Northern, studying specific methods proposed by a handful of individuals from the North. If we were truly undertaking this endeavor for justice and a future worth fighting for, we must do much more and much better. *I repeat my words on emergency situations. Inclusion is great if it can be achieved with little loss of development speed. Moreover, as developing nations are likely to be first and most adversely affected by global warming (Arctic nations excluded), these are just the locales where early testing should take place - inclusively.*Best Ye On 9/8/2023 6:08 PM, Ron Baiman wrote:Dear Anton et al.,Excellent meeting! I'm really sorry that I missed it! I got the time wrong but just finished viewing the recording!I was going to ask a question related to a proposal to begin to test the SAI polar approach (proposed by the "Cornell SAI group") - direct cooling of the Arctic (and Antarctic - as they both need to tackled together for symmetry - see Bala reference in the paper) based on the International Space Station model. This could be approached as a method to try to quickly slow down or reverse Arctic and Antarctic melting and restore previous conditions as much as possible - along with other possible Direct Climate Cooling and intervention approaches. My thinking is that collaboration and support by Finland, Norway, Canada, the US and Arctic indigenous peoples would be critically important. It could be framed as a "save the poles" effort but could potentially be the platform to start a serious global climate cooling effort.Suggested comments to this proposal welcome!: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o5xQogx1kKgD-QlM4MVPdWeL2BzBtwUm/view?usp=sharingThank you all! Best, Ron On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 10:20 AM <[email protected]> wrote: The recording of this meeting is at https://youtu.be/unPOcBY3idU Thank you very much Anton for joining us. *From:*[email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *[email protected] *Sent:* Monday, September 4, 2023 9:00 PM *To:* healthy-planet-action-coalition <[email protected]>; 'Planetary Restoration' <[email protected]>; NOAC <[email protected]>; 'geoengineering' <[email protected]>; 'Anton Keskinen' <[email protected]> *Subject:* [geo] HPAC this week: ARCTIC MOMENTUM Conference The Healthy Planet Action Coalition welcomes Mr Anton Keskinen, organiser of the just completed Arctic Momentum Conference in Finland, as our guest speaker this week. Date: Thursday 7 September Time: 10pm Finland (=3pm EST, 8pm UK, 5am Friday Australia AEST) Duration: 90 minutes Link: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/88954851189?pwd=WVZoeTBnN3kyZFoyLzYxZ1JNbDFPUT09 Anton will explain key outcomes from the Conference followed by discussion with meeting participants. All welcome. Operaatio Arktis (operaatioarktis.fi/en <http://operaatioarktis.fi/en>) organized the public event ARCTIC MOMENTUM on 31st August in Helsinki, Finland, about the state of the Arctic, and why we should conduct more research on climate interventions. Event page with more information on the high level goals, as well as the program: https://www.operaatioarktis.fi/arcticmomentum Description “We are a group of climate activists, turned from the street movement to advance and lobby for climate intervention research. Our goal is to preserve the Arctic Summer Sea Ice. For that we urge the Finnish government to take lead on the research needed. We are open for the possibility of finding several complementing methods to achieve this – perhaps some direct sea ice growth manipulation and SRM combined with the obvious emission reductions and GHG removal. Part of our mission is to bring different stakeholders and research teams together to enable visioning how climate intervention methods could complement each other, instead of focusing on debating which one is better or worse idea. The public session on 31st August is part of a larger three-day gathering, where we bring together indigenous leaders, activists, scientists, government officials and policy makers, to discuss who, if at all, should we move forward with preserving the Arctic. One of our main messages is that we must shift from the old climate paradigm (Climate Mitigation) to a new climate paradigm (Climate Repair). The old paradigm is about reducing emissions, accepting the damage that's unavoidable with emission cuts, and adapting when possible. The new paradigm states that we must reduce emissions, and try to prevent and repair the damage that's unavoidable even with sharp emission cuts, and adapt when possible. While the old paradigm presents what we call in our publication Arctic Endgame "politics of accepted victims", the new paradigm is antidote for this. We aim to change this climate paradigm first in Finland, and then in the whole World. You can read Arctic Endgame here: https://www.operaatioarktis.fi/en/arctic-endgame For those of you (I assume most) who cannot attend our public event on 31st in person, the event will be streamed on our Youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/@operaatioarktis2193 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/operaatioarktis/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/OperaatioArktis Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OperaatioArktis Subscribe our newsletter on the bottom of our website: operaatioarktis.fi/en <http://operaatioarktis.fi/en> Regards Robert Tulip https://www.healthyplanetaction.org/-- You received this message because you are subscribed to theGoogle Groups "geoengineering" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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