Mike: Thanks for replying to this user while I've been busy. RABNUD: I'm sorry for taking so long to reply, but this is the first chance I've had to write a proper reponse.
Also, it looks like Mike, (one of our more, ummm, shall we say "direct" members) has replied accurately and succinctly. I'm sorry if he offended you by the tone of his response - he probably places more importance in accurate speech than on being politically correct. However, please don't take this as GNHLUG leadership apologizing on behalf of a member - I'm not. We all have to stand by what we say and do, and if people don't like it, then the speaker/doer has a "learning opportunity." But on to the substance of your message... The web site was created so that people who are more comfortable with the web than with mailing lists can participate in the group - an attempt to open a channel to a wider audience for promoting Linux in New Hampshire. Your difficulty with the web site (and the mailing list discussion) is making me re-think this approach. Perhaps the group isn't ready for "public" exposure, perhaps the audience isn't ready for the technical discussions (and attendent "politics"). I'm not yet ready to take the news site down, (a sample of just one isn't sufficient to make me do that), but I am now more enlightened as to the difficulties "newbies" have with Linux (and the culture that produced it). As to the deleted messages and censorship - I'm the only administrator for the news site, and I haven't deleted any of your comments. And I assure you that no one is censoring the site - let alone having permissions to! I am disturbed that content may be mysteriously disappearing and will continue keeping an eye out (both for a replacement package and for bugs in the existing package). There's also the possiblity that you merely haven't exposed all of the comments - use the "Flat" or "Nested" display of comments (instead of the default of "Thread") - the selection box is at the end of the article when you click "Read More". And remember to click "Refresh". To address some of your issues: > "In the defense of fellow Newbies, though, we get > easily led in a hundred directions by the various > support avenues which come with Linux:" Believe it or not - I, as a computer user having had way too much exposure to proprietary and closed support systems, prefer the "Linux way" much more than the alternatives. Granted, its frustrating for newbies, but its better than no answer or worse, the wrong answer. At least with several references and a bit of time, I can puzzle through things - and with access to the sources - I can determine exactly what the problem is. That is not possible with any proprietary system I've ever been exposed to (with the possible exception of some military systems). In short - I'd rather be deluged with vague information (and have the source handy) than be authoratively told the wrong thing. There's also a hidden benefit - one learns a lot on the way to figuring out how to make something work. If you don't like the "hundred directions", then you can always buy support - just like with the Linux alternatives. But if you want all of your questions pre-answered then you're headed for disappointment - not just with Linux, but with any and all software products. Just keep in mind that Linux really doesn't make anyone much money - a lot of people do it just because they're so frustrated with the alternatives - and the price is right. Holding the hands of newbies cost money - and newbies are notorious for not wanting to pay - which is part of the reason there aren't many companies providing free software support for any software product! By the way, I don't mean to imply that Linux is perfect just as it is - far from it! But I know its not perfect and accept it. Just like people who buy used cars with dents in them - its worth the savings in money and aggravation of buying new cars (which I used to do). But I'm an old hand and young newbies never listen to us old-timers anyway... ;-) I guess the younger crowd just likes the pain of learning the same lessons we did :^| > They get online and get into the forum and there > they find fellow newbies posting forum answers!!! > But you've considered this elsewhere, right? Right: > the next avenue is/was to include HTML based > help documents along with the distro. All is local, > problem solved... Oops, dopey newbie... I forgot to > install Lynx... and X is crashed >... > That is what I and fellow newbies call no help. > Ulitmately, this amounts to obfuscation! Humm. It sounds like you got lazy in doing installs, and probably started with a few of the "cheaper" Linux distros. Yes, its aggravating when an install fails - but you can't tell me you haven't had similar problems with "the competition" (unless you've never done an install or a major OS update before). But in your defense, I have to admit that even "quality" distros like RedHat, SuSE, or Debian don't do well with systems that are more than a year or two older than the distro's release date - its something that could be improved on. But you know, this really comes down to the bottom line: why bother? There's no money in it - the only reason someone would do it is because either they just "cared enough" (and there's plenty of that in the Linux community) or because they found/created a niche market. But its in Corporate America's best interest to not serve this market - users of old systems will get frustrated and just go out and buy newer, bigger systems that come with the latest versions of everything. Welcome to America. Welcome to Free Trade. Welcome to Planned Obsolence. Welcome to "if you want it done right, you gotta do it yourself"! > "I came here for the free OS, but I'll only stay here with help" So far in your article, we haven't heard a request for help, just a lot of whining about why Linux isn't good enough for newbies. So far, all of your comments are against the Linux "industry" instead of technical problems that we as individuals can help with. We (GNHLUG) have a respectable record with technical assistance, but have a very low tolerance for whiners. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem - and in Linux, the solution is helping others. > "A house divided against itself cannot stand". I'm not sure how Linux is divided. Unless you mean that's the way it appears to a newbie? If so, sorry for the apparent confusion, but I think I can say that things are that way because the Linux industry doesn't have the resources that other software leaders have. And aren't you confusing competition with division of self? There's a lot of competion in the Linux industry (just look at the number of distros) - pretty remarkable when you consider no one is paying for "product". > The ex M$ Home desktop PC based Linux newbie > can possibly be given a lot of help unattended, if, > cross distro, there is developed a single unifying > help methodology implemented. Then you tell everyone > to start with "LearnLinux" as the first command they > should ever execute. For ex-Microsoft Linux newbies, I'm not sure what would be best - most of their knowledge was acquired via osmosis with other M$ users - Microsoft sure doesn't have a LearnWindows command or anything like it, and everyone appears to despise that talking paper clip. However, there is a proliferation of Windows for Dummies and Windows Unleashed and similar books. Surprise - there are similar books for Linux - just not as many (wouldn't want our newbies being led in a hundred directions :-). But to be honest with you, I believe the biggest problem ex-M$ users have with Linux is Linux's command line heritage. Which - after you get over the culture shock, you wonder how you ever got along without it on Windows. But by then you are no longer a newbie, and that, I suppose is your point. OK. Just stop using Microsoft for 6 months (go to Africa or China or something), then come back and get the latest distribution of Linux - better yet, get it there for free (good luck doing that with M$) - and you'll discover that its GUI has improved (and even surpassed) M$ in ease of use. Then when you come back here, you'll discover there's a new M$ product that does things differently. But, for the newbie, there's probably a better solution - one that doesn't require X, internet access or anything like that - its the "Getting Started With Linux" guide that comes in the Red Hat Boxed Sets. Most ex-M$ users should be able to read and understand it. Go out and buy it - contribute to world domination through global cooperation! OK - I've spouted off enough for the evening. I hope I didn't offend anyone with this long post. (I certainly didn't get anything else done tonight.) --Bruce > On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:57:51AM -0500, RABNUD wrote: > >>At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: >... ***************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *****************************************************************
