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A brief note that in this message the term "PGP" refers to any
implementation of the OpenPGP standard or implementations that
inspired the standard, including Phil Zimmerman's original PGP and its
decendants, and also GPG or any other implementation.

At some point hitherto, Michael O'Donnell hath spake thusly:
> My point has always been simply that this channel has
> a blessedly high S/N ratio that is worth preserving,
> and pointlessly cluttered messages degrade it.

This is the one point of your message I agree with, and I hope to
respond to a few of your other points (slightly out of order) in order
to provide some perspective as to the use of PGP, and perhaps even win
over some people to using it regularly.  I hope to pursuade you and
others that PGP is neither pointless nor is it noise.


> PGP is pointless here because this channel (and
> GNHLUG in general) is a safe environment.

There is no such thing as a safe environment, other than perhaps in
some imaginary utopian society.  In all aspects of life, there are
non-zero but widely varying degrees of inherent danger.  Just as it is
up to the individual whether or not to buy homeowner's insurance or
automobile insurance (in absentia of legal or contractual obligations
that do often accompany the purchase of such), so it is the
individual's right to decide what other forms of danger with which
they will concern themselves and from which they will attempt to
protect themselves.  In using PGP, I choose to provide myself with
what I feel is adequate protection from e-mail forgery, a danger with
which I choose to concern myself.


> My point has never been that forgery is impossible,
> so your forgery stunt illustrates...  what?

The forgery itself illustrates very little; that is true.  The fact
that it took me about three extra seconds to do it as compared to
generating my own reply illustrates that forging e-mail is easy enough
that if some bored teenager or other malicious person might decide to
pretend to be a regular poster and forge a message that will offend a
large number of people, or for other malicious purpose, he or she will
have NO trouble doing so.  E-mail forgery isn't just possible, it's
EASY.  I'm quite capable of offending people on my own, and I (along
with presumably everyone else who signs their e-mail) would prefer
that if one of my posts offends people, that at least I were, in fact,
the person who wrote it.  And barring that, that it were fairly easy to
show that I weren't.

Much as when one signs a hand-written or typed letter [have you ever
produced one you did not sign?], by using PGP to sign my messages, I
am providing a reasonable certainty to anyone who chooses to test it
that I and only I am the author of my message, whereas the mere
mention of my name at the bottom of the electronic document can not
reliably provide the same.  Forgeries of both types of signatures are
possible; however convincing forgeries that would stand up to expert
scrutiny are very difficult to achieve, in both cases.

In addition, there is an element of familiarity endowed by a
signature.  If you write a hand-written letter to a friend, the import
of signing or not signing is hardly different than signing or not
signging a mailing list post.  But would you ever NOT do it?  Most
people wouldn't even consider not signing a hand-written letter.  The
same familiarity of your friend's signature on a hand-written letter
is available in electronic documents through PGP signing.

As the reader of a letter, if you are familiar with the author, you
will see the signature and it will register as familiar.  If you are
unfamiliar with the author or his signature, you will simply ignore
it, though it remains for your scrutiny.  It is thus also with PGP
signatures.


> In the meantime, though, since forgery is a total
> non-issue on this channel

That is a subjective value judgement, and one with which I (and it
would seem others as well) do not agree.  Just because an event has
never happened before, does not mean it will not ever.  And just
because if it ever does, YOU will not care, some of us may.


> the PGP clutter is no more appropriate here than any of the other
> clutter  (eg.  HTML, TNEF, RichText, etc, etc...) 

Again, we are in disagreement.

The amount of extra text a PGP signature adds to a message is
generally around 100 bytes or so, and represents about as much clutter
as someone's large signature or custom e-mail headers (x-face and my
favorite x-message-flag come to mind).  And unlike those you mention,
a PGP signature serves a useful FUNCTION distinct from the content of
the message, which is to provide a *reasonably* reliable, though
admittedly imperfect, assurance of the *author's* (but unfortunately
not necessarily the *sender's*) identity.  Clearly some members of the
community *do* find value in this added function, as more than one
person here uses it.  Commonly, the other formats you mention add
nothing to the FUNCTION of the message, but only modify the FORM,
assuming the viewer is capable of interpreting them, and then at the
expense of (generally) adding multiples of the message size in extra
payload.

In cases where those other formats do provide additional
functionality, there are generally more efficient and more acceptable
alternatives to providing them in the message itself.  For example,
when one might be inclined to use HTML mail to distribute a web form
in an e-mail message, a more efficient alternative is to simply make
the form available from a web site, and provide the *address* of the
web form, rather than the form itself.  AFAIK, no such alternatives
exist for PGP signatures.  

For all of the above reasons, I argue both that PGP signatures do add
value to a message, and that there is absolutely no comparison between
a PGP signature and any of the aforementioned methods of message
formatting. 


And if it will appease you, I also know that exmh, the particular
mailer you use, can easily be configured so that the "PGP clutter"
does not appear in the message body (assuming you have some form of
PGP installed, which most modern Linux systems include).  While I
rarely offer the assistance of others without first asking, I've
little doubt that Paul Lussier would be delighted to help you set that
up.  :)

If you happen to use some other mailer at an alternate location, the
mailers which can be made to understand cleartext PGP signatures, and
thereby reduce or eliminate "clutter" include (but are not limited
to):

mutt
pine
exmh
kmail
Microsoft Outlook

HTH.

- -- 
Derek Martin               [EMAIL PROTECTED]    
- ---------------------------------------------
I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG!
GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu
Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org
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