Hi Andreas I would be be very happy to have a go at redesigning http://projects.gnome.org/gnumeric/downloads.shtml and daughter pages. Let me know the procedure.
>There are lots of volunteers that work on open source software which >benefits many people. Each of them obviously has a reason to do so but >none of them is required to help "average Joe" just because "average >Joe" would like it. No, none of them is required to do so, but to deny the need is to make open source the "free jazz" of the software world - appreciated only by those who like its challenge and difficulty and it's unorthodox way of going about things (and cos it's "free"!). Personally I have found that there is an open source solution to cover pretty much every eventuality, and that these are often better than the expensive proprietry alternatives. But there is a classic Catch-22 here in that the superior functionality is often hidden behind obscure interfaces and terminology that only those in the know have a chance of decyphering. It is designed by techies for techies. Making software user-friendly is not an easy task. Not seeking to blame anyone, but I go back to my original comment that there is a lack of designers, technical authors and usability experts in the O.S. community. Microsoft and certainly Apple realise the importance of usability - this (along with huge ad budgets of course) is their major advantage. Canonical know it too. This is why Ubuntu is the most popular desktop Linux distribution. Leonard Mada (see previous email) knows it too from a business perspective. John --- On Wed, 11/19/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: gnumeric-list Digest, Vol 55, Issue 11 To: gnumeric-list@gnome.org Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 12:00 PM Send gnumeric-list mailing list submissions to gnumeric-list@gnome.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnumeric-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of gnumeric-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Another try to get a response (Andreas J. Guelzow) 2. Re: Another try to get a response (Leonard Mada) 3. Re: Another try to get a response (Allin Cottrell) 4. Re: Another try to get a response (Jean Br?fort) 5. Look up target of hyperlink? (Jason Heeris) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:26:10 -0700 From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Another try to get a response To: Gnumeric <gnumeric-list@gnome.org> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 14:07 -0800, John Leonard wrote: > I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. The problem as I see it > is that the open source community consists of a lot of fantastically > clever programmers, but few designers and even fewer technical authors > who can put together decent documentation (especially in several > different languages). > > Worse, it is considered a rite of passage to have to trawl through > hosts of poorly designed websites, post to forums for answers that you > don't understand when you get them, and to learn the terminology > before you can get going. This is fine if you are technically > inclined, not so good if you are the average Joe whio is just trying > to get a job done. > There is a large business community that is happy to help you with your MS Windows problems for a fee. The size of that community and the very visible advertising for it clearly indicates (to me at least) that there are lots of problem even with non-open source programs. So if "average Joe" has a problem with an open source program, why doesn't he hire somebody to talk them through those installation or other problems. I am pretty sure that you could find somebody knowledgable for the appropriate fee. There are lots of volunteers that work on open source software which benefits many people. Each of them obviously has a reason to do so but none of them is required to help "average Joe" just because "average Joe" would like it. If you feel that a web site needs improving then you should provide an improved page (note that I am not saying that you need be able to write one, you could hire somebody to do so and then offer the page to the project.) Andreas ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:53:58 +0200 From: Leonard Mada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Another try to get a response To: gnumeric-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dear all, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 14:07 -0800, John Leonard wrote: > > > >> I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. The problem as I see it >> is that the open source community consists of a lot of fantastically >> clever programmers, but few designers and even fewer technical authors >> who can put together decent documentation (especially in several >> different languages). >> >> Worse, it is considered a rite of passage to have to trawl through >> hosts of poorly designed websites, post to forums for answers that you >> don't understand when you get them, and to learn the terminology >> before you can get going. This is fine if you are technically >> inclined, not so good if you are the average Joe whio is just trying >> to get a job done. >> >> > > There is a large business community that is happy to help you with your > MS Windows problems for a fee. The size of that community and the very > visible advertising for it clearly indicates (to me at least) that there > are lots of problem even with non-open source programs. > > So if "average Joe" has a problem with an open source program, why > doesn't he hire somebody to talk them through those installation or > other problems. I am pretty sure that you could find somebody > knowledgable for the appropriate fee. > I recently came to see Linux phased out as a webserver from an otherwise open-source friendly business (and by the way Netcraft shows a similar trend), because: - the cost of MS Windows Server 2003 is ~ $ 800 - the price of a good Linux administrator is > $2.000/month even in my less-developed country - most people know how to boot windows and how to log on to windows, what is the proportion that knows this on Linux? [This fact is relevant, because we employ customer support, and those people are likely to be available over the clock, so they are onsite when a server problem occurs. Having to pay a Linux-expert beyond the customer support team, which is available over the clock, is a complete waste of money.] - I had to allocate 3 persons for 1 week to install Firefox 3.0 on an older Ubuntu, and the persons had some knowledge of Linux (albeit non-experts in Linux, but they were all web-experts; sorry, but technologies have shifted) Until open-source learns to come a quantum leap forward with user-friendliness, I do see dire with open-source. There are exceptions. But there is still a long path to go, and especially for Linux and some other programs running on Linux. Sincerely, Leonard > There are lots of volunteers that work on open source software which > benefits many people. Each of them obviously has a reason to do so but > none of them is required to help "average Joe" just because "average > Joe" would like it. > > If you feel that a web site needs improving then you should provide an > improved page (note that I am not saying that you need be able to write > one, you could hire somebody to do so and then offer the page to the > project.) > > Andreas > > _______________________________________________ > gnumeric-list mailing list > gnumeric-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnumeric-list > > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:32:21 -0500 (EST) From: Allin Cottrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Another try to get a response To: John Machin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: gnumeric-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, John Machin wrote: > On 19/11/2008 04:42, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 09:34 -0800, George Dell wrote: > >> Thank you for engaging me on this issue. While I am a deep > >> believer in freedom as you mention it I also need to be able > >> to have people (who understand none of the technospeak and > >> specialized words), able to get to an installed usable > >> version. Even your answer leaves my head swimming... > > Installing gnumeric is usually trivial and you don't even need > > to go to the gnumeric web site. > > > > If you are using Debian... > > I'm not aware of any difficulty experienced by Windows users > installing free and open software like Firefox (competes with MS > Internet Explorer) or Openoffice.org (competes with Microsoft > Office). Their web pages seem to be lucid enough: The story so far: * George Dell -- who is obviously (to anyone who read his original posting) running MS Windows -- remarks on the difficulty of installing current gnumeric (or rather, finding an installer for current gnumeric). * Andreas G offers a basically irrelevant response that assumes a Linux user. * John Machin points out that some other free software projects, in contrast to gnumeric, offer a relatively easy installation path for users of MS Windows. My 2 cents: It's a "philosophical" issue and there's no single right answer. Many if not most developers of free software abhor MS Windows (yes, I'm speaking for myself here!), yet we have to recognize that most computer users still run Windows. Perhaps we think they ought to get a clue and use something better than Windows (as I do). At the same time, if we think our program is really good, we probably want to make it available to people who persist in running Windows. This is clear: No free software project "owes the world" an MS Windows version. But if a project such as gnumeric _does_ decide to make an such a version available, then IMO it should do so with good grace. By this I mean, the MS Windows version should be easily identifiable by Windows-users who visit the project's website looking for a download: "Installer for MS Windows HERE..." Allin Cottrell ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:40:51 +0100 From: Jean Br?fort <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Another try to get a response To: Allin Cottrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: gnumeric-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There are a few essential points that were not addressed in this thread. The fact that we do not ship any 1.8.x version compiled for MS-Windows is because we are still facing major issues. At least, print preview and contextual help don't work. When we have a decent windows version, then we can think how to make things easy for windows users. As long as it is experimental software, it might give a bad image of what free softawre is to MS-Windows users. The current development release (1.9.3) is the best we ever had for MS-Windows, but it is not a stable release, at least officially (it is not really unstable, I'm using it everyday). Just my $.02 Best regards, Jean Le mardi 18 novembre 2008 ? 20:32 -0500, Allin Cottrell a ?crit : > On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, John Machin wrote: > > > On 19/11/2008 04:42, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 09:34 -0800, George Dell wrote: > > >> Thank you for engaging me on this issue. While I am a deep > > >> believer in freedom as you mention it I also need to be able > > >> to have people (who understand none of the technospeak and > > >> specialized words), able to get to an installed usable > > >> version. Even your answer leaves my head swimming... > > > > Installing gnumeric is usually trivial and you don't even need > > > to go to the gnumeric web site. > > > > > > If you are using Debian... > > > > I'm not aware of any difficulty experienced by Windows users > > installing free and open software like Firefox (competes with MS > > Internet Explorer) or Openoffice.org (competes with Microsoft > > Office). Their web pages seem to be lucid enough: > > The story so far: > > * George Dell -- who is obviously (to anyone who read his original > posting) running MS Windows -- remarks on the difficulty of > installing current gnumeric (or rather, finding an installer for > current gnumeric). > > * Andreas G offers a basically irrelevant response that assumes a > Linux user. > > * John Machin points out that some other free software projects, > in contrast to gnumeric, offer a relatively easy installation path > for users of MS Windows. > > My 2 cents: It's a "philosophical" issue and there's no single > right answer. Many if not most developers of free software abhor > MS Windows (yes, I'm speaking for myself here!), yet we have to > recognize that most computer users still run Windows. Perhaps we > think they ought to get a clue and use something better than > Windows (as I do). At the same time, if we think our program is > really good, we probably want to make it available to people who > persist in running Windows. > > This is clear: No free software project "owes the world" an MS > Windows version. But if a project such as gnumeric _does_ decide > to make an such a version available, then IMO it should do so with > good grace. By this I mean, the MS Windows version should be > easily identifiable by Windows-users who visit the project's > website looking for a download: "Installer for MS Windows HERE..." > > Allin Cottrell > _______________________________________________ > gnumeric-list mailing list > gnumeric-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnumeric-list > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:05:11 +0900 From: "Jason Heeris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Look up target of hyperlink? To: gnumeric-list@gnome.org Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Using Gnumeric 1.8.3 under Debian Lenny/Sid I have a file imported from MS Excel where a column contains hyperlinked text (to other sheets in the same file). Is there a function or feature that would allow me to get the contents of the cells that the hyperlinks point to? Thanks, Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: </archives/gnumeric-list/attachments/20081119/c98583dd/attachment.html> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ gnumeric-list mailing list gnumeric-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnumeric-list End of gnumeric-list Digest, Vol 55, Issue 11 *********************************************
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