Concerning the accusation that "Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM PRISON", this is not entirely true. Most of the sailors were people from the interior of Portugal, who had never see the sea and were not aware of the danger of the oceans. People who lived in the littoral of Portugal were afraid of the sea and didn't want to go to the ships (one third of the ships that went to India sank).Of course, there were also criminals. as there were criminals in all armies. Concerning Angola, it is not true that "a group of far-left activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the legitimate government of Agostinho Neto". As Albert mentioned,the winners write History, not the defeated. Angola is now one of the most corrupt regimes in the world. A very rich country, where people live miserably. This began to happen soon after independence. A very large group of militants of the liberation movement tried to avoid the path of corruption and keep the way to a real independence. Agostinho Neto and his followers aniquilated this group and many angolan innocents, murdering about 30 000 angolans... Edgar Valles Lisbon
<[email protected]> escreveu (quarta, 7/01/2026 à(s) 15:12): > Talking about the wars in the Indian subcontinent, Kadamba, Yadava, etc., > doesn't justify anything, because in Europe there were also wars between > the Portuguese and Spanish, Germans and French, Napoleon and Hitler wanted > to invade Russia and were defeated, etc., but these were wars between > neighbors on the same continent. (Europe was responsible for both world > wars). > > What do Asians, Africans, native Brazilians, First Nations of Canada, the > USA, Australia, and New Zealand think when Vasco, Albuquerque, Columbus, > Pizarro, and Cortés are mentioned? That they were pirates who came from > afar to steal, enslave, etc. Even today in Hungary and Poland, the Mongols > of Genkis Khan are classified as savages who came to steal. > > The opinions of these people are WORTH MORE THAN the illusory grandeur of > the invaders. > > The statues erected of them in the former colonies were torn down because > they celebrated and represented the excruciating suffering of innocent > people. These statues were transferred to museums so that future > generations could learn about the past. > > Monuments honoring Josef Stalin disappeared from Eastern European > countries after the fall of the Soviet Union. In 2003, US Army soldiers > destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein in Karbala after the invasion of > Iraq. In the US, several monuments linked to slavery and colonialism, such > as statues of Columbus, were targeted. In the United Kingdom, the statue of > the trafficker Edward Colston was torn down. And in São Paulo, protesters > set fire to a statue of the bandeirante Borba Gato - a fugitive from the > law, gold smuggler, linked to the enslavement of Indians and blacks in > Brazil and who played a prominent role in the expeditions into the > Brazilian hinterland. > > Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM > PRISON. > > Even after Angola's independence, for example, a group of far-left > activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the > legitimate government of Agostinho Neto. They were repelled and thrown into > a mass grave. This is anti-colonial history. > > History is a science based on data, not on public opinion? History is > based on the testimonies of the conquerors/victors, based on ideologies, > racial supremacy, etc. It is not an exact science. Mathematics is > considered an exact science. So, 2 plus 2 equals 4 and there's no arguing > about it, and it's the same throughout the universe. > Alberto > > > > > > > > ----- Mensagem de Edgar Valles <> --------- > Data: Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:04:30 +0000 > De: Edgar Valles <> > Assunto: Re: [GRN] Vasco da Gama > Para: > > Very good and deep explanation , about Portuguese role in Goa, the one > made by John de Figueiredo. I agree with it. > However, the last conclusion may arise controversy: > "The Portuguese only became foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the > day when the “tryst with Destiny” occurred (to use the famous expression of > Jawaharlal Nehru).". > This would be true if Goa was integrated into British India. But it was > not the case, Goa was a Portuguese colony and the independence of India > didn't change its status. > For example, Indonesia became independent in 1945 and Portugal ruled Timor > Leste until Indonesia invaded it in 1975. Portuguese didn't become > foreigners in Timor Leste in 1945, just because Indonesia became > independent. > By the way, as the people of Timor Leste didn't accept the invasion by > Indonesia and fought, they were able to exercise the right of self > determination in a referendum and on the 2th May 2002 independence was > proclaimed. Indonesia , the invasor,was forced to give up Timor Leste. > According to the principles of Bandung Conference in 1955 and the United > Nation rules, people of a colonial territory should be allowed to decide > their own future. So, if Portuguese presence in Goa was legimitated till > 1947, it didn't become illegitimate just because India became independent > in 1947. > It would be different if Goans expressed the decision to be part of India > at that time. Then, Portuguese would be "foreigners in Goa" from that > year... > My thoughts are not politically motivated, as the past belongs to the > past. .. > Edgar Valles > Lisbon > > > > > > JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO <[email protected]> escreveu (domingo, 4/01/2026 > à(s) 06:42): > >> Let us not be elitist when judging Vasco da Gama. If he came from a >> lower social class (meaning, I trust, that he came from a poor family with >> a low educational level), then my admiration for him is even greater. >> Clearly, he had to overcome a significant social disadvantage to master and >> excel in the science and art of navigation and to convince his King that a >> “commoner” like him was up to the extraordinary mission of commanding a >> fleet from Portugal to India and back. And he did this, not once or twice, >> but 5 times. He connected the dots and demonstrated how this could be >> achieved. Was he helped by others? Sure. He was helped by the discovery of >> Bartolomeu Dias that Africa had an end and by the Arab pilot who guided him >> from East Africa to India. But so were Watson and Crick in their discovery >> of the structure of DNA. They were helped by the previous discoveries of >> Erwin Chargaff and Rosalind Franklin. This is how human knowledge advances, >> step by step, one discovery leading to the next one. His important >> achievement set the stage for an unprecedented globalization of knowledge. >> Was he perfect? Far from it. Understanding something is not the same as >> excusing it. What he did to the Muslim pilgrims is abominable by today’s >> standards, but it was (as Frederick said) fair game in his time. In 1469, >> Virupaksha I, Emperor of Vijayanagara, ordered the massacre of thousands of >> Muslims in Bhatkal. The few who survived fled to (guess where) Goa, where >> they found a home and thrived. Let us not be harsher in our judgment of >> Vasco da Gama just because he was a European or he was from a “lower >> class.” It really does not matter what Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, >> or Parsis think of Vasco da Gama. History is a science based on data, not >> on public opinion. My point is that as Viceroy of India, his message to >> fellow Europeans was: “If you are corrupt and steal from the public >> treasury, I will punish you.” And that is exactly what he did, and this is >> why we, Goans, should respect and admire Vasco da Gama as a person with >> integrity. It was a risky decision. With the benefit of hindsight, we can >> say that several of his successors as Governors or Viceroys (including our >> own Barnardo Peres da Silva) were deposed by military coups when they >> attempted to do what he did. A Secretary of State (European), who was, like >> Gama, a person with integrity, was assassinated in plain daylight in front >> of the Government Palace in Panjim by some fellow Europeans who saw him as >> an obstacle to their schemes and scams. Imagine a scenario in which Vasco >> da Gama looked the other way and may have even pocketed some money himself. >> Today, we would correctly say that he was a thief and a party to a >> cover-up. But that is not what he did. >> >> >> Why did the Portuguese occupy and settle in Goa? Good question. The >> last time I heard this question was from my friend Luiz de Camoes. He had >> Vasco da Gama being asked: “Quem te trouxe a estoutro mundo, tão longe da >> tua Pátria Lusitana?” (“Who brought you to this other world, so far away >> from your Lusitanian Motherland? "). This question raises all sorts of >> other questions. What made the Kadambas infiltrate Goa after they were >> defeated by the Chalukyas and conquer Goa, defeating its legitimate Goan >> Kings? What made the Yadavas conquer Goa, terrorize the Goans, and impose >> their language (Marathi) on the Goans? What made the Bahmanis and the Delhi >> Muslims invade Goa and terrorize the Goans? What made Vijayanagara conquer >> Goa? What forced Goa into the Sultanate of Bijapur? The only answer that >> comes to my mind is what my teacher of History at the Liceu, Rev. Dr. >> Antonio Garcia, S.J., used to say: “Just like in the big ocean the big fish >> eat the small fish, so the stronger peoples invade and conquer the weaker >> ones.” Happens even to this day, right under our noses. It seems to me that >> the fundamental misconception in this conversation is to view the >> Portuguese in Vasco da Gama’s time as foreigners. In fact, they were not >> “more foreigners” or “less foreigners” in Gama’s time than the Kadambas, >> the Yadavas, and all those other guys. The Portuguese only became >> foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the day when the “tryst with >> Destiny” occurred (to use the famous expression of Jawaharlal Nehru). This >> is why an agent of Vijayanagara approached Afonso de Albuquerque with the >> assent of some Goans and asked him to free Goa from Bijapur. >> Sorry for this long note. >> John M. de Figueiredo >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1112659100.3469483.1767508948056%40mail.yahoo.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1112659100.3469483.1767508948056%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > [email protected] > . > To view this discussion, visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAEXcPuqXto0rsP4rc8-PuMTFt%2BWLpcPAe-L12TwP30-6wzAcew%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAEXcPuqXto0rsP4rc8-PuMTFt%2BWLpcPAe-L12TwP30-6wzAcew%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > . > > > ----- Fim da mensagem de Edgar Valles <> ----- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20260107102704.Horde.C1gNGNWJO6dDcdNk9WDbXmj%40mail.sapo.pt > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20260107102704.Horde.C1gNGNWJO6dDcdNk9WDbXmj%40mail.sapo.pt?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAEXcPuruhXOMW9-skFYhpQE%3DO%2Bea6_Yicn5T%2BV9RPPCJ%3D5Mbrg%40mail.gmail.com.
