Very well. If today, with the UN and international treaties, there is
no respect for the established rules, now imagine the events that
occurred in the past during the era of piracy. How much violence and
massacres without the presence of TVs.
Trump wants riches just as Gama wanted them in the past.
There is corruption in Portugal, as everyone knows, but the RETORNADOS
only talk about corruption in Africa out of anger and revenge after
their defeat and expulsion.
East Timor also has its BANDITS, as described by Expresso:
The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) said today that a
person "holding a position in the East Timor government" is one of the
owners of a hotel that "appears to house businesses" with criminal
activity.
https://expresso.pt/internacional/asia/timor_leste/2025-09-11-o-governante-de-timor-leste-que-manda-no-hotel-a-e-as-atividades-ilicitas-descobertas-pela-onu-ha-corrupcao-jogo-ilegal-e-redes-criminosas-ac612cc7
Alberto
----- Mensagem de António Colaço <> ---------
Data: Thu, 8 Jan 2026 16:25:49 +0000
De: António Colaço <>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Vasco da Gama
Para:
At Vasco da Gama's time there were neither Pacts, nor international
law, nor UNO. We live in the 21st century. How to analyse USA's act
against Venezuela in the light of the saying that "big fish eat
small fish"?
António Bernardo Colaço
Edgar Valles <[email protected]> escreveu (quinta, 8/01/2026 à(s) 13:04):
Concerning the accusation that "Many of the sailors who accompanied
Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM PRISON", this is not entirely
true. Most of the sailors were people from the interior of
Portugal, who had never see the sea and were not aware of the
danger of the oceans. People who lived in the littoral of Portugal
were afraid of the sea and didn't want to go to the ships (one
third of the ships that went to India sank).Of course, there were
also criminals. as there were criminals in all armies.
Concerning Angola, it is not true that "a group of far-left
activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the
legitimate government of Agostinho Neto". As Albert mentioned,the
winners write History, not the defeated.
Angola is now one of the most corrupt regimes in the world. A very
rich country, where people live miserably. This began to happen
soon after independence.
A very large group of militants of the liberation movement tried to
avoid the path of corruption and keep the way to a real
independence. Agostinho Neto and his followers aniquilated this
group and many angolan innocents, murdering about 30 000 angolans...
Edgar Valles
Lisbon
<[email protected]> escreveu (quarta, 7/01/2026 à(s) 15:12):
Talking about the wars in the Indian subcontinent, Kadamba,
Yadava, etc., doesn't justify anything, because in Europe there
were also wars between the Portuguese and Spanish, Germans and
French, Napoleon and Hitler wanted to invade Russia and were
defeated, etc., but these were wars between neighbors on the same
continent. (Europe was responsible for both world wars).
What do Asians, Africans, native Brazilians, First Nations of
Canada, the USA, Australia, and New Zealand think when Vasco,
Albuquerque, Columbus, Pizarro, and Cortés are mentioned? That
they were pirates who came from afar to steal, enslave, etc. Even
today in Hungary and Poland, the Mongols of Genkis Khan are
classified as savages who came to steal.
The opinions of these people are WORTH MORE THAN the illusory
grandeur of the invaders.
The statues erected of them in the former colonies were torn down
because they celebrated and represented the excruciating suffering
of innocent people. These statues were transferred to museums so
that future generations could learn about the past.
Monuments honoring Josef Stalin disappeared from Eastern European
countries after the fall of the Soviet Union. In 2003, US Army
soldiers destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein in Karbala after
the invasion of Iraq. In the US, several monuments linked to
slavery and colonialism, such as statues of Columbus, were
targeted. In the United Kingdom, the statue of the trafficker
Edward Colston was torn down. And in São Paulo, protesters set
fire to a statue of the bandeirante Borba Gato - a fugitive from
the law, gold smuggler, linked to the enslavement of Indians and
blacks in Brazil and who played a prominent role in the
expeditions into the Brazilian hinterland.
Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED
FROM PRISON.
Even after Angola's independence, for example, a group of far-left
activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow
the legitimate government of Agostinho Neto. They were repelled
and thrown into a mass grave. This is anti-colonial history.
History is a science based on data, not on public opinion? History
is based on the testimonies of the conquerors/victors, based on
ideologies, racial supremacy, etc. It is not an exact science.
Mathematics is considered an exact science. So, 2 plus 2 equals 4
and there's no arguing about it, and it's the same throughout the
universe.
Alberto
----- Mensagem de Edgar Valles <> ---------
Data: Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:04:30 +0000
De: Edgar Valles <>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Vasco da Gama
Para:
Very good and deep explanation , about Portuguese role in Goa,
the one made by John de Figueiredo. I agree with it.
However, the last conclusion may arise controversy:
"The Portuguese only became foreigners in India on August 15,
1947, the day when the “tryst with Destiny” occurred (to use the
famous expression of Jawaharlal Nehru).".
This would be true if Goa was integrated into British India. But
it was not the case, Goa was a Portuguese colony and the
independence of India didn't change its status.
For example, Indonesia became independent in 1945 and Portugal
ruled Timor Leste until Indonesia invaded it in 1975.
Portuguese didn't become foreigners in Timor Leste in 1945, just
because Indonesia became independent.
By the way, as the people of Timor Leste didn't accept the
invasion by Indonesia and fought, they were able to exercise the
right of self determination in a referendum and on the 2th May
2002 independence was proclaimed. Indonesia , the invasor,was
forced to give up Timor Leste.
According to the principles of Bandung Conference in 1955 and the
United Nation rules, people of a colonial territory should be
allowed to decide their own future. So, if Portuguese presence in
Goa was legimitated till 1947, it didn't become illegitimate just
because India became independent in 1947.
It would be different if Goans expressed the decision to be part
of India at that time. Then, Portuguese would be "foreigners in
Goa" from that year...
My thoughts are not politically motivated, as the past belongs to
the past. ..
Edgar Valles
Lisbon
JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO <[email protected]> escreveu (domingo,
4/01/2026 à(s) 06:42):
Let us not be elitist when judging Vasco da Gama. If he
came from a lower social class (meaning, I trust, that he came
from a poor family with a low educational level), then my
admiration for him is even greater. Clearly, he had to overcome
a significant social disadvantage to master and excel in the
science and art of navigation and to convince his King that a
“commoner” like him was up to the extraordinary mission of
commanding a fleet from Portugal to India and back. And he did
this, not once or twice, but 5 times. He connected the dots and
demonstrated how this could be achieved. Was he helped by
others? Sure. He was helped by the discovery of Bartolomeu Dias
that Africa had an end and by the Arab pilot who guided him from
East Africa to India. But so were Watson and Crick in their
discovery of the structure of DNA. They were helped by the
previous discoveries of Erwin Chargaff and Rosalind Franklin.
This is how human knowledge advances, step by step, one
discovery leading to the next one. His important achievement set
the stage for an unprecedented globalization of knowledge. Was
he perfect? Far from it. Understanding something is not the same
as excusing it. What he did to the Muslim pilgrims is abominable
by today’s standards, but it was (as Frederick said) fair game
in his time. In 1469, Virupaksha I, Emperor of Vijayanagara,
ordered the massacre of thousands of Muslims in Bhatkal. The few
who survived fled to (guess where) Goa, where they found a home
and thrived. Let us not be harsher in our judgment of Vasco da
Gama just because he was a European or he was from a “lower
class.” It really does not matter what Christians, Hindus, Jews,
Muslims, or Parsis think of Vasco da Gama. History is a science
based on data, not on public opinion. My point is that as
Viceroy of India, his message to fellow Europeans was: “If you
are corrupt and steal from the public treasury, I will punish
you.” And that is exactly what he did, and this is why we,
Goans, should respect and admire Vasco da Gama as a person with
integrity. It was a risky decision. With the benefit of
hindsight, we can say that several of his successors as
Governors or Viceroys (including our own Barnardo Peres da
Silva) were deposed by military coups when they attempted to do
what he did. A Secretary of State (European), who was, like
Gama, a person with integrity, was assassinated in plain
daylight in front of the Government Palace in Panjim by some
fellow Europeans who saw him as an obstacle to their schemes and
scams. Imagine a scenario in which Vasco da Gama looked the
other way and may have even pocketed some money himself. Today,
we would correctly say that he was a thief and a party to a
cover-up. But that is not what he did.
Why did the Portuguese occupy and settle in Goa? Good
question. The last time I heard this question was from my friend
Luiz de Camoes. He had Vasco da Gama being asked: “Quem te
trouxe a estoutro mundo, tão longe da tua Pátria Lusitana?”
(“Who brought you to this other world, so far away from your
Lusitanian Motherland? "). This question raises all sorts of
other questions. What made the Kadambas infiltrate Goa after
they were defeated by the Chalukyas and conquer Goa, defeating
its legitimate Goan Kings? What made the Yadavas conquer Goa,
terrorize the Goans, and impose their language (Marathi) on the
Goans? What made the Bahmanis and the Delhi Muslims invade Goa
and terrorize the Goans? What made Vijayanagara conquer Goa?
What forced Goa into the Sultanate of Bijapur? The only answer
that comes to my mind is what my teacher of History at the
Liceu, Rev. Dr. Antonio Garcia, S.J., used to say: “Just like in
the big ocean the big fish eat the small fish, so the stronger
peoples invade and conquer the weaker ones.” Happens even to
this day, right under our noses. It seems to me that the
fundamental misconception in this conversation is to view the
Portuguese in Vasco da Gama’s time as foreigners. In fact, they
were not “more foreigners” or “less foreigners” in Gama’s time
than the Kadambas, the Yadavas, and all those other guys. The
Portuguese only became foreigners in India on August 15, 1947,
the day when the “tryst with Destiny” occurred (to use the
famous expression of Jawaharlal Nehru). This is why an agent of
Vijayanagara approached Afonso de Albuquerque with the assent of
some Goans and asked him to free Goa from Bijapur.
Sorry for this long note.
John M. de Figueiredo
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normetica.blogspot.com[1]
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