�Conversion in Pakistan is very rare� The Hindu Business Line By Rasheed Bhagat 3rd March, 2004
Bishop Anthony Lobo of the Islamabad-Rawalpindi diocese has always lived in Pakistan. Discussing in an interview with Business Line the condition and status on Christians, the opportunities open to and the discrimination against them, he says that with most educated Christians leaving Pakistan, is it left with the uneducated and depressed sections.
Excerpts from the interview:
As a person who was born and has lived here, how do you see the status of Christians in Pakistan?
I was born in Karachi, studied here and was trained here. The city has about one per cent Christian population, of which half are Roman Catholics and the other half Protestants. Around the time of Partition there were educated and fairly well-off Christians, but a lot of them have migrated, so we have been left, by and large, with people who were converts from communities or sections that were depressed and treated as outcasts or untouchable (Hindus).
No rich Hindu, Muslim or Sikh got converted. They were only from the lower classes, and the conversions took place en masse.
Through 150 years of missionary work, mostly in mission villages, these people were settled in the villages and given jobs. The missionaries put up mission schools and hospitals.
The Roman Catholic policy in Pakistan early on was totally different from the Protestant policy. We stuck to primary schools and a few high schools, while the Protestants went all the way up to colleges. So all the leading colleges were Protestant.
So the backbone of quality education in Pakistan, as in India, is Christian.
Yes, it used to be. We were pioneers.
But are people grateful to you for that? In India, when there are attacks on nuns and missionaries, some of us, beneficiaries of education in Christian institutions, are dismayed.
There are two kinds of people here - those who benefit from this education, appreciate it and want the next generation and the next to benefit. And those who don't know anything about it except the prejudices. For instance, if you go there you'll be converted.
How important is conversion in your scheme of things?
It is very rare. Actually, conversion from Christians to Muslims is very common and happens for economic or other reasons. But the other way round is rare.
Is that because it is not allowed or because that is not your priority?
Because society will not allow it. Because a person converted will be ostracised, if not killed.
Are you zealously guarding the people of Christian faith from being converted to Islam?
There is no way we can do anything about it. In this country, there are about 26 congregations of nuns. Each congregation has between five and 12 schools, and their favourite work is in running schools and hostels for girls. But for the boys... in my diocese there is only one congregation for boys and one more in the rest of Pakistan. So, the work done for boys cannot be equated with that done for girls.
Many more girls are passing high school than boys, and when the time comes for marriage they say Christian boys are not our `class', there is no compatibility. Nevertheless, many of them do marry Christians, but often the woman is the breadwinner; she is either a nurse or a teacher and the men are minding the babies.
But do these girls marry into Muslim families?
Yes, they do, but cannot practice Christianity. They have to convert.
Would you say Christians in Pakistan have their fundamental or religious rights, or do they have to be careful always?
Here, we will have to distinguish. Actually, in India it is worse because in India you don't only have different classes but also different castes. It is always the case that the lower classes are mistreated by the upper classes; it happens even in the United States, it happens in Europe.
I would not say that they are discriminated against because they are Christians. I would prefer to say that they are discriminated because of class. We don't have caste but we have something akin to it.
Next, we will have to distinguish between what a Muslim who is educated and liberal would do and what those that are extremist and intolerant would do. So you cannot generalise.
Because there are these differences; some Christians are doing very well and are happy. But the uneducated and those from the lower classes do face discrimination.
So, education is the key?
Yes, but once you pass a certain threshold they do very well.
Have the educated Christians done well in Pakistan economically?
You can't expect that they can go right to the top, to become a general in the army, or a top bureaucrat, or a judge in the courts. We used to have that in the past, soon after Partition, but not now. The ceiling has come down.
How would you compare this to the status of Christians in India and the way they are treated?
I would say northern India is just like Pakistan. The Christians are very few. Except in Ranchi, where there was a mass movement, you get a similar kind of picture.
But the south is different?
Yes, in India if they need a principal for a school in the north, the local Christians may not come up to the mark. So they go down south and bring up a brother or a sister and have the best principal. Just count the number of Bishops in India - starting from Kashmir, right down to the south - who are south Indians.
In Pakistan, of the seven dioceses, five are local but, of course, we were born here. That's why I say the north of India is like Pakistan, except that we cannot go down south and bring anyone!
Did many Christians migrate out of Pakistan?
Oh yes, look at my family. My brother runs a company of his own but his wife and children are all settled in the US.
Then there is another aspect. You have to distinguish between religion and culture. You might have the same religion in Tunisia, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The religion is Islam but the culture is different.
Are you talking about tolerance levels?
Yes. Rather than brand any religion this or that, you have to distinguish between different cultures. You can have the same culture and different religions.
Take the culture of corruption... look at South America, the Philippines, Indonesia or, for that matter, India or Bangladesh, now supposed to be the most corrupt in the world. These things must be kept in mind; otherwise, there is a tendency to make general statements.
The growing anti-American feeling here... is it associated with Christianity, in that it is regarded as an attack against Islam. From that point, do the Christians here feel insecure ad at risk from the extremist elements?
When George Bush reacted first after 9/11, he used the word crusade and that sparked a furore. He is trying now to erase it but cannot delete it. So the people reacted here.
Yes, there is a tendency to identify Christians here with the West, because the West is supposed to be Christian. Now how Christian it is, you know better than me; many people don't even go to church.
This tendency goes to the extent that even Hollywood is considered to be an example of Christianity and therefore the morality of Islam is considered superior to that of Christians.
So things were hotting up and we reached a stage when the US was going to attack Iraq - we already had attacks immediately after Afghanistan was invaded - and we expected the same, because they had attacked Christian churches, schools and hospitals earlier.
Expecting a second round when Iraq was attacked, I, as secretary-general of the Bishops' Conference, drafted an open letter to the US President, Mr George Bush, condemning the attack on Iraq.
Anti-Christian sentiment was raked up by the leader of a leading extremist party who said that for every Muslim killed in Iraq, we will kill 10 Christians here. But when the government confronted him, he denied it.
Which party was this? Would you like to name it?
No. What difference does it make? So the Christians were afraid but the one who saved us was the Pope. He came out very strongly on the front-page of newspapers every-day against the war. He sent one Cardinal to Mr George Bush, and another to Saddam Hussein, and made his own statements.
So, finally, another equally fundamentalist person said: Alright, it is clear now this war is not Christians versus Muslims and Christians in Pakistan need not be afraid. So nothing happened.
Over the years, have Christians been killed in communal riots?
No, but again you'll have to distinguish. Incidents do take place; like one we had three years ago that was related to bootlegging. Unfortunately, because they can't make money in any other way, many Christians are bootleggers and sell alcohol to survive.
But you can't do that without paying the police and, in this case, the police demanded more, and ransacked the place in a search operation during which a Bible fell to the ground. Then they said a Koran was desecrated too, and ugly incidents broke out, but nobody was killed in these.
Have you ever felt concerned about your own security?
I move around freely, but after 9/11 we've kept guards at the churches on the instructions of the Government, though it sent its own police too.
What do you think of Gen Musharraf's performance?
He is a boy from my school - St. Patrick's in Karachi - and always acknowledges it. He came out very strongly after 9/11; first on the Taliban, then Kashmir and the latest is the nuclear issue. Looking at all three, we just couldn't have afforded these adventures economically. He has done what is best for the country.
Nobody is asking us to give up our sovereignty or to change our religion. These are all expensive things, and take away from such basic issues as education, health, etc. This has gone on for 56 years and it is time to make peace between India and Pakistan.
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