Response: While ignoring the usual bird brained and juvenile opening remarks which we have now got accustomed to, I will focus on the more substantive issues.
I found the rest of the below post quite interesting. However, there do not address the statement made by Prof Borges. and there are several gaps which need to be filled. 1 The below post scores high on verbosity and rhetoric but low on substance. All the quotations attributed to Fr Jerome in the below post have all come from third parties or hearsay. If Fr Jerome did state all these words attributed to him, surely there would be some original documents available to corroborate and verify just like the documents posted by Prof Borges. Is it possible for Santosh to post records (weblinks) of the actual debate when these so-called quotations were uttered. These would be far more reliable. Otherwise, they appear to be an outcome of a game called Chinese Whispers which we used to play as children. ( for those not familiar with the game or its meaning, please refer to the foll weblink): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers 2. Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual. I am yet to come across any authentic statement of Fr Jerome or any other Christian member objecting to extension of economic and social benefits to dalit christians. I have pointed out several statements of Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee from the debate in Parliament in my responses to Prof Borges which contradict what Santosh has posted. For the sake of brevity, I reproduce a few of them here. Prof Borges further quotes Fr Jerome as under: "*According to him, a man is to be assisted because he is poor, because his birth and upbringing have not given him the opportunity to make progress,socially,politically and educationally; it should not matter whether he be a christian,or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Brahmin or non-Brahmin, or a Scheduled Caste member." Prof Mookherjee in the debate is quoted as saying: "So far as the masses are concerned my friends are united in saying that the masses do not want reservations. They say that they are interested in three or four things only. They want food, clothing, a shelter over their heads, medical aid and good roads. These are their demands. When they were specifically asked whether they wanted reservation, the reply in every case was as follows: "We know that we shall never enter the Legislatures; reservations do not concern or interest us." There all sections of the people were at one. Then came queries addressed to the lower middle classes, people who depend upon service to earn their living. Their reaction was that if there was any kind of reservation they would like to have reservation in jobs." Prof Mookerjee is further quoted as saying: "So far as the idea of building up one nation is concerned I do admit that there are certain economically backward groups in every community and for them provision has been made in the directive adopted in December last." For those interested in reading the entire post, they may access the same from the foll weblinks: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233952.html http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233918.html 3. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee did press for not extending economic and social benefits to dalit christians during the debates or in the run up to the adoption of the Constitution, why was the Constitution adopted with the safeguards intact? Why was the Presidential Order issued barely 7 MONTHS later which excluded all other religions except hindus from availing of the benefits? What transpired during the intervening period from 26th January 1950 to 9th August 1950 for this Presidential Order to be issued? 4. Santosh has quoted M Madhu Chandra as saying: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..........M. Madhu Chandra If the dalit christians were excluded based on the representation of Christian leaders, a) why did the Christian leaders protest and make a representation to the Prime Minister after the Presidential Order was issued? b) Why did the PM and President have to give any assurances? c) What were these assurances? d) Is it possible to access these two letters of 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950? They would shed much light. I look forward to Santosh throwing more light rather than heat on this subject. I believe that education never ends. There is always something more to learn each day. With every new evidence, our old beliefs are discarded. Regards, Marshall *Now that Prof, Borges has presented some of the facts on this issue, let me tell you why I know that he is on solid ground in his assertions about Christian members of the Indian Constituent Assembly. While doing this let me also provide evidence on the issue of impulsive rhetoric and lack of balance when it comes to sectarian matters that I raised in my previous post in regards to other respondents in this thread.? Some longstanding members of Goanet might remember that the main issue here was debated many years ago in this forum. At that time it was pointed out that Fr. Jerome D'Souza, one of the Christian members had objected to including Dalit Christians in the list of Scheduled Castes on the theoretical grounds that there is no caste in Christianity. The evidence that was cited at that time to support this fact was an article written in 2005 by an American Jesuit scholar and professor of Boston College named Fr. John Francis Izzo. Here is the link to that article, entitled "Dalit Means Broken" in a prominent Catholic magazine: http://americamagazine.org/issue/518/article/dalit-meansbroken Here are some pertinent quotes in that article: QUOTE When India?s founding Constituent Assembly debated making concessions for Outcaste-Christians, Jerome D?Souza, S.J., representing the Christians, rejected them, claiming there is no caste in Christianity. UNQUOTE .......Fr. John Francis Izzo QUOTE ?Who will look after the Christian Dalits?? Dr. B. R. Ambedkar asked Father D?Souza. ?The Christian churches will,? Father D?Souza replied. UNQUOTE .......Fr. John Francis Izzo The questions as to who was consulted, and on whose representation and on what precedent the Presidential order of 1950 and the list of Scheduled Castes were issued have also been addressed in the popular media by genuinely well-informed activists and journalists concerned about this issue, such as the human rights activist M. Madhu Chandra and Sunil Dasgupta of India Today. The common answer to two of these questions appears to be exactly what Prof. Borges claimed - the Christian representatives on the Constituent Assembly. Here is an article on this by Madhu Chandra: http://www.countercurrents.org/chandra160707.htm Here is the relevant quote in this regard: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..........M. Madhu Chandra While there may be some ambiguity in the meaning of the above statement, please note how thoroughly the following additional quote contradicts the claims made in the post appended below: QUOTE For first time, Indian's lowest caste known as "Untouchables" or "Depressed Classes" have been identified as Scheduled Castes introduced by Colonial Government of India in 1935. In the following year Colonial Government of India (Scheduled Castes) Order 1935 specified, "No Indian Christian shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste." Since then any Scheduled Caste origins converted to Christianity lost its Scheduled Caste status, although they remain economically, educationally, socially and politically backward as much as before their conversion. UNQUOTE ..........M. Madhu Chandra Here is an article in India Today that clarifies further any ambiguity that there might be about the role played by the Christian members of the Constituent assembly in excluding Dalit Christians from the Schedule Castes list: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/disgruntled-dalit-christians-seek-inclusion-of-community-to-scheduled-caste-list/1/288775.html Here is the money quote: QUOTE The problem should not have arisen at all. When Jawaharlal Nehru was compiling the Scheduled Caste list, he called three prominent Christians- Rajkumari Amrit Kaur, Father Jerome D'Souza and H.C. Mukherjee-to ask if any section of their communities should be included in the list. They, however, said no such measure was needed. After all, Christianity was an egalitarian, classless religion. They were wrong-and Christians in this country believe they are still bearing the cross. UNQUOTE .......Sunil Dasgupta Cheers, Santosh*
