2006/5/29, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Jonas Karlsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've read through the license once more and still don't agree with you.
> Let's read that part again (about indemnification):
>
> (f) you agree to defend and indemnify Sun
> and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities,
> settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees)
> incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any
> third party that arises or results from (i) the use or distribution
> of your Operating System, or any part thereof, in any manner, or
> (ii) your use or distribution of the Software in violation of the
> terms of this Agreement or applicable law. You shall not be
> obligated under Section 2(f)(i) if such claim would not have
> occurred but for a modification made to your Operating System by
> someone not under your direction or control, and you were in
> compliance with all other terms of this Agreement.
>
> In short this says (from the FAQ):
>
> - Indemnify Sun against claims arising from your OS or your violation of
> the DLJ (or any applicable law) Note that you are not responsible for
> changes made to your OS distribution by downstream users or distributors
> when such changes are out of your control.
Note that you indemnify them for changes made *upstream* of your
distribution.
Yes, I've come to understand the complete extent of this paragraph: if
a user wrongly sues Sun for anything happening while using GoboLinux
with Java we have to indemnify, or at least pay the autorneys fee, no
matter whos fault it originally was (unless it's the users own fault,
but then again he/she wouldn't have a case in the first place).
> To me this says that
> (i) we will defend Sun from any lawsuit originating from faults in our
> own distribution, but as Hisham pointed out, we don't give any
> guarantees, so this is no risk.
Moreover, the DLJ explicitly negates the "no guarantees" clauses
of other agreements.
Yes, but only if the lawsuit is directed at Sun (see above).
[...]
> I'm no lawyer, but as I see it, as long as we comply with the DLJ when
> we redistribute the JRE (or JDK), we are safe. Why else do you think
> that distributions like Debian, Ubuntu and Gentoo are willing to "take
> the risk", if the risks were that high?
In Debian's case, the usual licence review process was
short-circuited, so I think it was a mistake, especially as Java
is not distributed with the operating system, but separately.
Yes, I have read the complete thread at debian-legal[1] and I side
with the doubtful. The more I read the DLJ, the more it feels like a
trap. There are some unresolved issues with the DLJ, before Java is
really distributable. There are also some questions raised on how (who
and who) Java made it into Non-free in the debian-legal that aren't
answered, according to me, anywhere in the thread. The whole thing
smells bad to me.
Could the fact that Debian accepted the DLJ fast, without doing the
normal procedure, have anything to do with Ubuntu's collaboration with
Sun (also asked in the debian-legal thread)?
Ubuntu is backed with a company with enough financial support
to deal with Sun being unreasonable, as far as I can tell.
Yes, and because of that I think that Sun will think twice before
beeing unreasonable with them. It's another case for smaller distros,
like ours.
I don't know the details of Gentoo's use.
I haven't found anything there either, but it seems to me like Gentoo
does things its own ways. It seems like they have a live and let live
atitude, but unfortunatly not everyone live by that and Gentoo risk to
get burnt in the future.
Hope that explains,
Well, I guess you didn't see my last e-mail, where I agreed that
redistributin Java would be risky. Hopefully Debian (and Gentoo) will
see this as well and resolve the issues with Sun so that we (and other
small distributions) can make the JRE (and JDK) redistributable, but
until then I agree to that we should not redistribute a JRE (or JDK)
package.
--
/Jonas
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2006/05/msg00086.html
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