I have an additional comment. Although I see Google dropping GWT when Dart becomes ready for prime time, I believe GWT will live on as a community project. Additionally, given Google's internal use of GWT, Google is likely to at least minimally support GWT (for its own needs at least) for a considerable time. GWT is such a valuable tool and has achieved sufficient level of maturity that I think it'll not disappear.
Lacking an unexpected statement of real commitment, perhaps we should start considering how best to provide community support of GWT. Blake McBride On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Blake McBride <[email protected]> wrote: > Here is my own personal opinion about what is going on. > > Initially Google was totally dedicated to GWT. It is a great platform > loved by Google and many others. > > Oracle is suing Google over Java. Google doesn't know where this is going > to end and is, quite frankly, sick of the idea that Oracle could possibly > sue them over use of a largely public platform. Google doesn't ever want > to be in a position to have another company bully them - especially given > the very significant time and money Google put in to, in effect, promoting > Java. > > Given the possibly crazy settlement amount, it is cheaper and less hassle > over the long haul if Google just invents in its own stuff and doesn't > depend on anything such as Java. > > Given this, Google has roughly decided to drop GWT over the long haul and > move to some other solution such as Dart. However, there are two issues. > First, Google doesn't know how the suit will unfold, nor how the public > will react to both the suit and diminished support of GWT. Secondly, > Google doesn't know when Dart will be able to totally replace GWT. These > two issues cause Google to be silent. They don't want to prematurely kill > GWT, especially since they aren't totally sure about its future anyway. > They also can't give a roadmap since that would largely be a lie. The > only thing they can do is remain silent. Look for an announcement about > GWT when Dart is ready for prime time. You can thank Oracle for all of > this! > > (On another note, IMO, Oracle suing over Java use may go a long way > towards killing Java over the long haul. Nobody wants to live with a > possible threat like this from one of the largest companies in the world.) > > Blake McBride > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 7:12 AM, July <[email protected]> wrote: > >> +1 >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:48:52 AM UTC+8, emurmur wrote: >>> >>> I'm one of the fence sitters. >>> >>> I have been using Flex/Flash, which has been fantastic, but has no >>> future on the mobile web. I think there are only two mature tools >>> that would allow me to create similarly rich applications; GWT and >>> Closure Tools. Google has decided that Javascript won't cut it for >>> their own future products, even though they are heavily invested in >>> Closure Tools. I agree completely. It is important to understand >>> that they have also decided NOT to move everything to GWT. This makes >>> some sense, given that the owner of Java is suing them. I think this >>> is in no way a reflection on GWT as a tool and technology. So Google >>> has decided to move forward with a third initiative designed, in part, >>> to replace GWT and Closure Tools at Google. So, I look at that and I >>> am worried about long-term support for GWT. I think that is a >>> reasonable concern. This concern is mitigated by the fact that GWT is >>> a fully open-source project. Flex/Flash on mobile browsers _was_ >>> fully supported and look how that turned out. So, corporate support >>> is no guarantee; open source is actually a safer bet. However, I >>> would feel a lot better if I had an official roadmap for GWT. >>> >>> That being said, Ray's comments on what is coming are heartening. The >>> biggest worry I have for GWT, if Google stops directly supporting it, >>> is the debug environment. The plugin seems to need a lot of >>> maintenance because the browsers are moving so fast. The upcoming >>> support for source-maps mitigates this; I would feel better if I did >>> not have to rely on a plugin. >>> >>> I've been working with Dart quite a bit and it is really promising. >>> However, integration with other Javascript environments is >>> problematic. For instance, Dart integration with PhoneGap does not >>> exist and appears to be very challenging (some have tried and decided >>> to pass on it). This is a non-starter for me. I want to use the >>> mobile web, but I also want the flexibility of providing an app if my >>> customers want one. For now, Dart can't do that. This may also be a >>> problem when trying to integrate a Dart app into Windows 8 Metro. GWT >>> is far superior in this regard; it has a nice architecture for >>> integrating with Javascript and many useful implementations, including >>> a couple for PhoneGap. I'm hoping Javascript integration will be >>> addressed in the future, but Dart is still in alpha and the team is >>> working on core features at least until the language gets to 1.0. >>> Also, because Dart is so young, the tooling cannot compare to Java >>> tooling. This will improve, but Java has many years head start. The >>> Dart team is amazing and I am sure they are creating something very >>> important; I just wish they were 2 more years along. >>> >>> My window for fence sitting is closing fast. I will have to make a >>> decision. GWT and Dart are the only real contenders. As of now, I >>> think GWT is the best choice, but I would sleep better at night if I >>> had a roadmap under my pillow. >>> >>> >>> On Apr 13, 7:34 am, Blake McBride <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > I strongly disagree with this. First of all browser technology and >>> HTML >>> > are in constant flux. If GWT is not updated, it will very soon become >>> > out-of-date (bugs in new browsers) and unusable (reliably usable over >>> a >>> > broad base of browsers and platforms). Secondly, building apps with >>> GWT is >>> > a full time job. Having to understand and maintain GWT makes two full >>> time >>> > jobs. Building GWT apps could easily be a multi-million dollar effort >>> - >>> > and so could maintaining GWT. This is a huge, huge risk! >>> > >>> > Another issue I've seen this many times before. When Windows became >>> > popular, many developer tools appeared. Many were quite good. IMO, >>> the >>> > worst development environment by far was Microsoft's MFC. Virtually >>> all of >>> > the other tools either sold out or got dropped. Management often >>> chose MFC >>> > over other tool because they were non-technical and the old IBM adage >>> > applied to Microsoft "no one ever lost their job by selecting >>> Microsoft" >>> > ruled. In the end, the industry largely settled on the absolute lowest >>> > common denominator. Innovation in that area, for all practical >>> purposes, >>> > is dead. >>> > >>> > Now we have ASP, JSP, and other popular mashups out there. I am >>> utterly >>> > shocked how poor they are (although to their credit, they are trying >>> to >>> > solve practical problems given an environment that was clearly not >>> meant to >>> > support what they are attempting!). These environments are among the >>> worst >>> > I've ever seen. It's one kludgy work around after another with three >>> > totally different environments attempting to interact. GWT goes a >>> very >>> > long way to solve this very significant problem. However, GWT is a >>> total >>> > waste of time if you risk your entire company on it and it gets >>> dropped. >>> > In terms of financial risk, very unfortunately, tool popularity and >>> > support beats functionality, elegance, and productivity every time. >>> > >>> > A statement of commitment from Google would make a huge difference to >>> me. >>> > >>> > Blake McBride >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Frank <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > > GWT will also not go away... >>> > > If you have downloaded GWT on your computer you just can keep using >>> it >>> > > even years after Google has dropped GWT... >>> > > Just like you still can program in QuickBasic or something. >>> > >>> > > GWT doesn't need anything from Google on the web to operate. >>> > >>> > > I will just keep using GWT if Google drops it, and see keep an eye >>> on Dart. >>> > >>> > > Op donderdag 12 april 2012 10:00:15 UTC+2 schreef dominikz het >>> volgende: >>> > >>> > >> I've been for years with technologies like SAP or AS/400. Those are >>> > >> really annoying when you try to do something modern. But the thing >>> that is >>> > >> good about them is that they never go away. I understand that >>> Google needs >>> > >> to try new things (dart). But turning away from such a big project >>> like GWT >>> > >> is stabbing yourself in the back. >>> > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > > "Google Web Toolkit" group. >>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > >https://groups.google.com/d/**msg/google-web-toolkit/-/**TSws9XOf334J<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-web-toolkit/-/TSws9XOf334J>. >>> >>> > >>> > > To post to this group, send email to google-web-toolkit@** >>> googlegroups.com <[email protected]>. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > > google-web-toolkit+**[email protected]<google-web-toolkit%[email protected]>. >>> >>> > > For more options, visit this group at >>> > >http://groups.google.com/**group/google-web-toolkit?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/google-web-toolkit?hl=en> >>> **. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Google Web Toolkit" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/google-web-toolkit/-/2hh07FVI2kcJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/google-web-toolkit?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google Web Toolkit" group. 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