thanks luisa, venuettan and ranjith for all the posts,

Its interesting and hope-giving,
to know that Gandhian studies is finding less takers in India now,
i really did not know this.. given the intellectual (and as Ranjith pointed
out),
the popular, mainstream revival of Gandhi, i thought Gandhi is
coming alive all over again in every possible way.

now to come to luisa's response
yes i would say that on both independence and untouchability
Gandhi and Ambedkar had opposite goals.

Adding to what Venugopal pointed out above, Ambedkar was even seen by some
as
being anti-national and not wanting independence, mainly because, he was
highly suspicious
of the transfer of power from the British to the Indian caste elite. And
though he was (had to be)
very much a part of the national process, Gandhi's was so much a struggle to
put the savarnas
through independence, Ambedkar was always pitted against Gandhi and
sometimes even
independence itself, in his mission to find space in this new India
for Dalits and the other lower castes.

Gandhi had no interest in abolishing untouchability.As you must have seen
from what Venugopal had posted, he was a super-casteist.
HIs interest was in reforming this "unpopular" aspect of Hinduism,
not for the sake of the untouchables, but for the continuing growth of
HInduism.
This was because, at that time he was already dealign with an India in which
the dalit bahujan lower castes
had already started coming up through various caste movements, triggered
off, also by the coming
of the British. In such a scenario, Gandhi was not there in solidarity with
their uprising.
He was historically there from the Savarna side, to actually prevent it from
establishing itself furhter.

So what he did was not a reform of Hinduism for the sake of the untouchables
It was something  like a re-adjustment of Hinduism to accomadate the new
pressures.
Something that the caste system and the HIndu ideology have been doing for
ages and ages.
Like in the assimilation of Budhism into Hinduism...
With this what Gandhi worked against was the political idea of the Dalit as
being constructed by Ambedkar. In its place he placed the gandhian/savarna
idea of
the Harijan... With this he tried to hold the Harijans, safely within the
Caste system,
without letting them go, and creating a new political identity of their own.

So in such a scenario, i cannot put Gandhi and Ambedkar in the same set.
Like in the case of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King,
They both were both Black Men fighting against race.,
maybe with so many differences..

Here you have an upper caste Indian man pitted against a Dalit man,
and the difference is so huge, its like one is a white man
and the other black....
and though both of them lived and worked during a particular historical
period,
and moved in very similar contexts, there was very little that they
otherwise shared.

jenny

ps: I have taken most ideas from G Aloysius, Nationalism without a Nation

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:08 AM, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Leaving dilip to do his detective job, let me add something to the
> discussion.(I want to tell dilip that I am no CPI M activist and yet i can
> sense 'fundamentalism'. i dont know how "I" sense it. really a great talent
> indeed!!)
>
> This is based on a TImes of India report i read months back (i dont have a
> copy. writing from memory. So all those dilip kinda mistakes might fall into
> this as well). It is like this. There are no students for Gandhian Studies
> and Gadhian scholars are worried. Their worry, as reported (NOTE THIS POINT
> AS IN CBI DIARY KURRIPPU... for those detective's kind attention), was not
> this, but that there were applications pouring in for studying the
> philosophy of Ambedkar. I still remember Dr. Aloney telling me (while in
> Baroda) that people wholeheartedly celebrate Ambedkar jayanthi  and media
> find it difficult to digest. thus negative news stories planted etc etc.
> The point is ; the people have rejected Gandhi. but the caste Hindu
> 'cultural mass' wants to rejuvenate Gandhi through films, seminars, media
> stories. See how Gandhigiri has been promoted.
> Gandhi was a creation of colonial/savarna media. the legacy of the same
> continues..
> Ambedkar could  overcome all kinds of savarna media propaganda agaiinst
> him  bz his image was constructed by the people--- Dalits.  and not by
> media...
> that is why in Chengara we could see the photos of  Ambedkar and Ayyankali;
> and not that of Gandhi and EMS. Intellectual and NGOs wil have problem with
> it. They will celebrate Gandhi and would try their level best to
> impose gandhi  on social movements of the marginalised.
>
> I wonder, why cant those intellect with some kinda special SENSE got from
> kannur cpim gene, sense it. May there is something wrong in the sensing
> operation. Gandhian methodology shall be applied to rectify it, perhaps. As
> a fundamentalist anti-Gandhian I can't suggest any remedy.
> I can only say that detectives of all sorts(from Jamia shootout to Gandhi)
> require an intellectual refresher which no one else can suggest.
>
>
>
> >
>

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