+1 for your thoughts too Chris! Alex
Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer writes: > Christopher Allan Webber <cweb...@dustycloud.org> writes: > >> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes: >> >>>> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just >>>> want to be sure that we won't disappoint the main audience and >>>> attract a lot of newsbies which i think we are not ready for. >>>> >>>> If I can vote, I will +0. >>> >>> I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :) >>> >>> My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts. >>> Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project >>> be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from >>> that, I think). >> >> I think this is absolutely the right goal, and the right call. I am >> 100% behind the visual design, partly for this very reason! I like the >> design, it is the right level of modern, crisp and professional design, >> but with just the right touch of playfulness. That playfulness is >> critical, I think. Consider the community we have, and the community we >> would like to bring in? >> >> From what I've gathered, the traditional and public view of lisp and >> scheme is of some ancient wizards (perhaps not so far from the cover of >> SICP) casting spells from towers or potentially labs, maybe AI >> labs... I love wizards, and lisp's history has a lot to thank of fairly >> wizardly characters, but while wizards evoke a sense of magic, it is a >> kind of unapproachable magic. >> >> The new design appeals to me: it retains a kind of magic, but it is the >> kind of magic of childhood, and when Guile is at its best, this is >> true. Guile is a magical, wonderful playground, and one whose limits is >> your imagination and your patience. Perhaps you will indeed become a >> powerful wizard, but maybe you will become a magician of some other >> type. But no matter what, magic is under your fingertips from the very >> beginning. Come play along! >> >> If you'll permit me to ramble a bit, I think Guile's community is at an >> opportune time. It's not visible to the outside world so much yet, but >> Guile's community is a deeply welcoming one... something that was >> surprising to me when I entered. I've heard from plenty of others in >> the community that one of the reasons this or that person stayed is >> because of the level of patience and care given to questions, and this >> is a great sign. >> >> We aren't a diverse community... look at the gender distribution on >> these mailing lists, and that's telling enough. But Guile has the right >> environment to become a better. Guile's three maintainers, Ludo, Andy >> and Mark, have all expressed interest in becoming an even more welcoming >> and diverse place. But that requires hard work. There are lots of >> steps to be made, but how we present ourselves is foundational. >> >> To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is >> Better" essays. That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of >> many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right >> about it. Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible", >> or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse >> is where I felt welcomed." Given that, no wonder many people feel safe >> and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing". >> >> But maybe we could have both. I believe it requires effort, and perhaps >> a rebranding of imagery. The wizard towers are still there if you want >> them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme >> because of some fun and inviting drawings. The fun drawings don't take >> anything away! But they add something: they make Guile feel like >> somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong. >> >> There's plenty more to do (and to be said) to make that true, but I >> think this redesign is a great step in that direction. >> >> - Chris >> >> PS: As for the "it's not professional enough", most companies follow >> where developers want to go these days anyway, and those who are so >> entrenched in professionalism are probably "enterprise software" >> shops. Those companies are already so deeply entrenched in Java or >> .NET that I wouldn't worry about them at this point. :) > > Thank you for these wonderful words. :-) A big +1 from me as well, for > Luis' design and your words. > > Taylan