On 2023-09-05 16:01:17 +0200, Simon Tournier wrote: > Hi Katherine, > > Thank you for your extensive analysis. I concur. > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 10:11, Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherin...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > 3. We should reify a way for Guix, the project, to measure, and track > > progress, > > against long-term goals. Particularly when they're social and not > > strictly > > technical. > > That is the most difficult part, IMHO. Well, what are the long-term > goals? :-) > > I am almost sure we will get various answers depending on people. Let > say the long-term goals of the Guix project are: Liberating, Dependable > and Hackable. Then how do you give concrete quantities that we can > measure or track? > > And it is always difficult, if not impossible, to measure or track some > goals that are not technical but social. For example, how do you > measure being welcoming or being a safe place for all? > > Do not take me wrong, I strongly think we must think again and again on > that point for improving. It’s just easier to tackle technical bug. :-) > > > > 11. Try and get each commit message close to correct and commit. > > > I view steps 1-10 as pretty standard "development" steps common to most > > projects, although 11 compounds the effort in 10. > > Maybe I am doing incorrectly but I have never thought much about that. > > For that point #11, from my point of view, it is as with any other > project. I start by running “git log --grep=” for getting inspiration. > > Well, as a rule of thumb, I am doing something like: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > top-module: submodule: one line summary. > > Fixes <https://issues.guix.gnu.org/12345>. > Reported by Jane Doe <j...@doe.org> > > * path/to/file.scm (variable):[sub-part]: Description of the change. > [otherpart]: Other description. > * path/to/other/file.scm (other-variable): Description. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > In case of doubt, I am just running “git log --grep=” looking for > similar thing, as said. :-) > > > > 12. Run `guix lint` > > 13. Run `guix style` (this is still in the manual although I have since > > learned this is not actually advisable). > > 14. Review the changes these tools have made, and fix things. > > 15. Run `guix build --rounds=2 <package>` to check for idempotency. > > 16. Run `make` to ensure you didn't break anything elsewhere in Guix. > > 17. Run `guix size` to ensure the closure isn't becoming bloated. > > 18. Build all the packages that depend on this package. > > 19. Run `guix pull --url=/path/to/your/checkout > > --profile=/tmp/guix.master` to > > ensure you didn't break Guix in a different way. > > > In other projects I've worked with, steps 12-19 are commonly done in a CI > > pipeline, and courteous people will try to save CI resources by running > > these > > steps locally first using some kind of environment identical to what CI runs > > (sometimes a container is used for this. I think Guix has better options!). > > Sometimes this is not feasible due to asymmetric resources. But having the > > option to let CI manage this process is very nice. > > For instance, I am not seeing “make check”. ;-) And that omission makes > very clear the cognitive overhead we are speaking about!
I personally am glad it is not there, since I never (in ~9 months toying with Guix) had all the checks pass on the clear master. There are always one or two failing tests. But I guess this was supposed to be taken as "run make check' and make sure nothing new is broken". Is there a command for that? > > Here I see two annoyances: > > 1. The number of subcommands and steps. > 2. Each subcommand has a list of options to digest. > > Well, CI is helpful here, for sure. However, it would be helpful to > have a script similar as etc/teams.scm or etc/committer.scm that would > help to run all these steps. > > It does not mean that all these steps need to be run before each > submission. However having a tool would help irregular contributors or > newcomers; it would decrease the cognitive overhead i.e., that overhead > would be pushed to some script and it would reinforce confidence. > > Now someone™ needs to implement this script. ;-) > > > > 20. Run `git format-patch -1 --cover-letter [--reroll-count]` > > 21. Run `./pre-inst-env ./etc/teams.scm cc-members <patch>` to get > > the CC flags for Git > > 22. Remember that if you're sending multiple patches, an email first > > has to be > > sent to `guix-patc...@gnu.org` to get an ID, and then... > > 23. Run `git send-email --to guix-patches <patches> <CC flags>` > > Well, my grey hair are biasing my opinion. ;-) From my point of view, > the most annoying is #22. > > Vagrant suggested [1] to send patches as attachment. I am not convinced > it will be better. Well, it will for submitting but will not for > following series. For instance, let consider: > > [bug#65010] [PATCH 0/8] Misc Python build system improvements > Lars-Dominik Braun <l...@6xq.net> > Wed, 02 Aug 2023 12:37:57 +0200 > id:cover.1690972374.git.l...@6xq.net > https://issues.guix.gnu.org//65010 > https://issues.guix.gnu.org/msgid/cover.1690972374.git.l...@6xq.net > https://yhetil.org/guix/cover.1690972374.git.l...@6xq.net > > then, one will do reply and probably comment one or more patches over > the 8. Then, it is harder for another person to follow. For example, I > would have to open the message in order to know that this series adds, > > guix: toml: Add TOML parser. > > which could be interesting for Julia. And I would probably skip all the > series because the subject is about Python build system improvements > that I am necessary following. However, if I see the subject, > > guix: toml: Add TOML parser. > > then I open the message and read it. > > Therefore, I do not see any “good” solution for this point #22. One > idea would be to have a kind of proxy. We would send the whole series > to an hypothetical guix-contributi...@gnu.org and then a bot would send > to guix-patches for getting an ID and that bot would send the series to > that ID, probably adding some X-Debbugs-CC for the submitter (and for > teams). Bah, too much “would”. :-) > > > 1: https://yhetil.org/guix/87wmx8m5gb.fsf@wireframe > Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? > Vagrant Cascadian <vagr...@debian.org> > Sat, 02 Sep 2023 18:05:40 -0700 > id:87wmx8m5gb.fsf@wireframe > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-09 > > > > If I compare this workflow to the workflow of other contributions I make: > > > > 1-10 as usual > > 11. Write a more commonly accepted commit message with no special > > formatting. > > This depends on the project and I am not convinced we can rule for #11. > > BTW, one strong advantage for this commit message format is that grep > can be exploited. For some reasons, I am often looking for some past > versions, for example, > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > $ git log --pretty="%h %s" | grep Update | grep vlc > 8d342711dd gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.17.4. > 5a29cc9ade gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.17.3. > fb0e5874ec gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.16. > e2ad110f4c gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.14. > def314d810 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.12. > 6ec120b1c7 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.11.1. > 0bed485a39 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.11. > 178f1d1f75 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.8. > cf40f8e4d7 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.7.1. > 94f7f9503a gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.7. > dba326def1 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.6. > ea593fe298 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.5. > d0e23e3940 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.3, and add more inputs. > 7627705293 gnu: vlc: Update to 3.0.3, and add more inputs. > f137f84923 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.8 [fixes CVE-2017-9300, CVE-2017-10699]. > dd13aa90d6 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.6. > 3bc45ad460 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.5.1. > a134cc8e93 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.4 [fixes CVE-2016-5108]. > c6c86cd7a5 gnu: vlc: Update input Qt to version 5. > 9c55bae607 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.1. > 1a189da0e7 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.0. > b9156ccc08 Revert "gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.0" > ad036bda89 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.2.0 > 23466647a8 gnu: vlc: Update to 2.1.5. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > And because there is some variation with the commit message format, > these are not all the updates of VLC, > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > $ git log --pretty="%h %s" | grep Update | grep VLC > af74211d98 gnu: VLC: Update to 3.0.18. > 5af110868c gnu: VLC: Update to 3.0.10. > 091ef8c97e gnu: VLC: Update to 3.0.4. > 324c049ff6 gnu: VLC: Update to 3.0.3-1 [fixes CVE-2018-11529]. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > Then “guix time-machine --commit=fb0e5874ec -- shell vlc” and hop I get > 3.0.16. If the commit message format would not be so strict, this would > be impossible and we would need another external tool. > > > > 12. Run `git push` (subsequent changes are still just `git push`). > > 13. Go to forge website, click button to open a pull-request. > > 14. Wait for CI to tell you if anything is wrong. > > To be fair, here you forget one important blocker: having an account to > the forge website. > > I do not speak about freedom issues. Just about the fact to open an > account to the forge website. For example, let consider this project: > > https://framagit.org/upt/upt > > And if I want to contribute with a Merge-Request, I need to open an > account to the Gitlab instance of FramaGit and push my code to this > instance, even if I already have my fork living on my own Git > repository and I have no plan to use this FramaGit forge. > > > > If you're so inclined, for a bit of fun, and as a crude way of simulating > > compromised executive functioning, imagine that between each of the > > steps above, > > a year passes. And reflect on what it would be like to gather the energy to > > start the process of starting a contribution of some kind, let alone > > follow it > > through to completion. > > I like this way of thinking because it helps to spot some blockers. > > Please note that it is not truly about the complexity of the steps but > about how many steps one is able to complete between two interruptions. > Well, it is a well-known issue about task switching [1]. :-) > > 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_switching_(psychology) > > Cheers, > simon > -- There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.
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