I am not sure what the connection is to scripting you seem to find.  It is a
connection between the limitation  of the old code which as mike has already
said is due for a complete rewrite.  It is like saying oh let's give the car
a tune up anyway even though we are going to replace the moater.  It is a
waste of time and money.  Also if we were talking about a 7.1 version then
your logic would make scence.  But we are not.  We are talking about a major
upgrade so the priority has to be on new features.  Do you know because of
scripting that you are bemoaning that window-eyes has more to offer in this
version than ever before.  Even if your not a scripter you can take
advantage of window-eyes scripts.  I am still learning but I will tell you
because of scripts I am doing things with window-eyes that I only dreamed
about in jaws.  For a good example see the IE max script.   now waigh the
power and feature base you get from scripts to an annoying problem with
brows mode and I think you will see that the advantages out waight the
disadvantages.  
One thing I will tell you that I believe about gw micro is this.  they are
slow plodding in fact.  This has been a major problem I believe for them.
How-ever when they do come up with some thing it is a wonderful addition.
For example lets take Microsoft office.  The fact that window-eyes did not
support office all that well before 5.0 was a major problem for it.  now
it's support is second to none.  Scripting is going to solve this problem
to.  You want support for a thing then learn how to script or find some one
who knows how and then you don't have to wait for gw micro to do a thing.
This is true in most cases at least.  


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Tinney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:48 PM
To: jim grimsby Jr.; GW Micro
Subject: Re: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities

I agree that Window-Eyes may need a new browse mode engine, but if version 
seven beta broke a feature that worked before, that should be a top priority

to fix before adding new features like scripting.  As I've said before, I'll

just have to stay with 6.1 until this issue is fixed as I use read-to-end a 
lot.

Bob Tinney, K8LR, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype, bobtinn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Bob Tinney'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities


Ok this is not
A read to end issue. It is in fact  a brows mode issue.
Brows mode as gw micro has stated needs an over hall.  There is a lot of old
code I am sure from older versions of MSAA older version of internet
explorer etc.  what happens is code get thrown on to more code and after a
while you got a mess of spaghetti. So at times the modules that handelq
things don't need an update they need a complete  rewrite.
You can think of it this way.  You got an old car that has a nice buddy
sleek and sits comfortably.  We will call the car the user interface and
user interaction. Now under the hood you got the  engine -----Original
Message----- that makes the cargo.
This is old and warn out so your mechanic tells you.  You going to have to
replace it he says.  So do you give it a tune up hoping it will fix it?
No you drop a new one in that bad boy.
We have the same situation here.
So there has to be a cut off and this cycle has come to its end. It has been
over a year from last relece and if funding for more r&d is going to come to
fix more issue then a new version has to be released.  One advantage to open
source free programs they can afford to stay in beta for as long as they
like.  The disadvantage to them is that they don't have the money to buy
software and hardware to work with.
Like I said about your eloquence issue that is not really something gw micro
can do much about.
From: Bob Tinney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:36 PM
To: jim grimsby Jr.; GW Micro
Subject: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities

Jim,
I've actually stopped using the new eloquence and gone back to the sapi 4
Eloquence so that I can control voice tone.

On the read to end issue, if you turn on read to end under new page
information, Window-Eyes always goes to the top of a page and no longer
remembers where the user was when they left that page.  This feature worked
pretty well until version 7 beta 1 came out and it has been broken in beta 2

and 3 also.

Bob Tinney, K8LR, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype, bobtinn
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim grimsby Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Bob Tinney'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 9:28 PM
Subject: RE: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities


Read to end problem?  What read to end problem?
Also the synthesizer does not support tone internally  which means you would
have to hack it some way.  So what you would have to do is get all of the
parts of the synasizer in to memory.
It is not gw micros fault that this device does not support this capability
in its native interface.
As for loss of speech problems if no one is getting an error to send to gw
micro so they can reproduce or see at least what is going on how can they
fix it?  you can't fix something you can't reproduce.  For example right now
on the scripting list we are all doing testing to figure out why my IE Max
is broken and now we got another person's who is not working.  Will it get
fixed yes but we have to find the problem first.   face it fellows every
piece of software ever put out is broken in some way and that is why it has
to be updated.  If every bug got fixed then window-eyes 7.0 would never get
put out.  This is why you have servus packs updates etc.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Tinney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:11 PM
To: Sam bushman; GW Micro
Subject: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities

Sam, I also agree that the loss of speech issue should be resolved before a
full release comes out.  There are two more things that I can think of that
should also be fixed

First, the read to end problem was broken with WE 7 betas and apparently GW
Micro is not going to fix this problem before version seven comes out.  I
thought that GW Micro was dedicated to releasing a rock solid product, but I

guess they are  just spouting words, like FS.

Another problem that needs to be fixed is that with the new eloquence, the
voice tone can not be changed.  That is very important to many users.

I hope that GW Micro reconsiders releasing a broken product, cause Rock
Solid sure doesn't apply to version 7 beta 3!

Bob Tinney, K8LR, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype, bobtinn
Original Message ----- 
From: Sam bushman
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:31 PM
Subject: WE 7 Beta 3 issues and priorities


Hi all,

Is it possible to get a beta 3 priorities list together?
I like it when we find bugs report them they are duplicated and fixed for
the next version.

But, we need to start to focus on the most important issues / a priority
list if you will.
In other words ... many of us are reporting the same things over and over.
I agree they are problems but, GW has basically said they aren't working on
msaa stuff.
So, email, web browsers pdf files (any thing that uses msaa is not the
focus).
It doesn't matter if we agree that is the proper order ... that is what is
set for fix / release.

I personally would have rerote the msaa / browse mode stuff way before I
would have added power point / itunes  and scripting.
But, GW has the list of what they think best and we need to trust them and
be part of the solution for the next release ... isn't that what we agree to

when we use / run the beta.

Now please don't email the list debating with the above and the pros and
cons of this are.
I am not trying to speak for GW and am just repeating what I personally
think they said and ment.

Personally the loss of speech is the biggest issue for me.
I lost speach yesterday ... couldn't get it back for the life of me.
I had a sighted daughter say that we was running and she clicked around and
the computer was working perfectly.
She didn't know why the speach was not happening but, I had her click on the

system tray icon for WE and exit the program.
It exited cleanly and I just pressed ctrl-alt-w and we came back to life.
No errors of any kind and when I tried to send an error report WE said there

were no errors to report.
The sad part about this is I was not able to get GW any info to help resolve

this (huge!) loss of speach issue.
Since we would like WE to be rock solid and would love to have speech as
reliable as the screen output ... I am hoping all of us can come up with a
way to duplicate and help GW resolve this main issue.

Any ideas on this?

If GW could give us a list of things we should try and do in order when we
loose speech we may get them more info that would be helpful.
Currently I know that the story I just told about loss of speech above
doesn't help them at all.
But, If I know exactly what they are looking for and what they want me to do

in order and reported solid step by step info ... they could get to the
bottom of this.

Any ideas are welcome.
Any one else think the loss of speech issue is bar none the biggest issue
for us?

Thanks for listening.
Sam bushman


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