Greg; I am pointing out that the vendors do not publish such figures because the outcomes are attocious for comparisions with other technologies they hope to supress. The paper was published over 5 years ago and I am a bit hazy on the specific figures, but those figures and the testing constraints were published. These results are correct in the magnetudes, but I am a bit hazy on the details. But if someone else might have that article, we might put it up on hardhats for review.
Also remember that the MUG Quarterly was a user group publication and not the IEEE. I think that it is a sad state when the vendors can't put together a reasonable set of benchmarks to let the truth be known. Also remember that Kaiser in Northern California just stopped a ten year project to install Oracle in favor of another MUMPS solution. Southern California Kaiser never changed off of MUMPS technology. Hard to beat the ecconomies of scale. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Woodhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == Are you saying that a paper didn't make it through the peer review process? If I were a reviewer for a paper of this type, I'd be looking for clear definitions of terms like "faster", and I'd also want to see some theoretical basis for the comparisons being made. My personal opinion is that M based systems would fare very well in a study such as this, but I would not expect papers relying largely on anecdotal evidence or measures such as transactions per second (without further qualification) to be rejected. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:51 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: > Joseph; > > One reason you haven't seen benchmark comparisions between the > different > relational databases (Oracle, Sybase, DBase (you pick the release), > Informix), the vendors contractually inhibits their users from > publishing > the results. Why would they do that? Because they know the > outcome. It > ain't good for them. The Koreans did publish the results of one > benchmark > they did in one of the Last MUG Quarterlies. The results were > astounding. > Same hardware, same load, same task took the relationals 6 hours or > more to > complete. MUMPS took something less than one hour to complete. > > Oracle used to be a true relational database and their > performance really > sucked. They hired Irene Chen from SAIC and the CHCS project. > They learned > some of why MUMPS is faster. Soon after Oracle became a relational > database > that mapped to a heirachical database internally. This gave them a > big > boost in performance and some improvement in scalability. They > just didn't > learn the rest of the lesson, how to make it scalable or learn how > to build > effective memory cacheing. > > The result is that MUMPS allows for some very important performance > enhancement that other databases haven't learned yet. One such > enhancement > is that most read requests are satisfied in memory cache and these > requests > don't have to go out to disk. So only about 15% of the reads on a > loaded > system actually result in a physical read. This is a phenomenal > increase > in performance. A MUMPS system will speed up with more people on > the system > (to a max determined by the available memory and the CPU > performance), but > these limits are much higher numbers of users than Oracle or Sybase > could > support on the same hardware. > > The bottom line is that there have been attempts to replace MUMPS > systems > in the past and the CHCS project for the DoD has been no > exception. They > have been trying to bring up CHCS II to replace the CHCS I system > which was > patterned after DHCP, the direct predicessor to VistA. After 15 > years and > many millions of dollars, CHCS II has finally been withdrawn for > the last > time and CHCS I still runs the hospitals. If Oracle or Sybase, or > Informix > could do the job, they would be doing it. Where are they?? > > Want an idea of the complexity of the VistA model? Look up the > Entity > Relationship Diagrams. Then show one of the nearly 100 pdf files > to your > favorite Relational Database Guru and watch him blanch at the > numbers of > data elements and relationships represented there. On CHCS there > were over > 22,000 different data elements in the data dictionary. In Northern > California, nearly 500,000 patient records are stored in less than 120 > gigabytes of disk space. It would be interesting to see how much > space the > same information would take up in the relational model, then pack a > lunch, > cause it will take a good long time to traverse that data as a > relational > database. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:22 PM > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == > > > >> Yes, it will be interesting to see what can be done with Cache. >> We're >> looking into the patient screening issue I mentioned previously, for >> example. >> >> It's interesting, I never heard of this M/VistA being faster than SQL >> relational until I started reading these messages. I'm keen to >> see if >> that's true. I just got done writing an HL7 data access object to >> talk to >> the HDR which is Oracle. (Don't ask why I'm talking HL7 to an Oracle >> database, I'm not sure I know myself.) I will certainly be >> looking at the >> speed. >> >> Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the >> only game >> in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and >> > Oracle? > >> >> And yes, speed is essential. It's what makes VistAWeb so popular >> with >> providers, along with its simple interface. I'm not gonna be >> happy if the >> HDR slows it down. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >> Nancy >> Anthracite >> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:00 PM >> To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >> Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == >> >> It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is >> reengineered for >> VistA >> because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and >> additionally, >> the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache >> delivers >> that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as >> well. >> >> The Intersystems folks knew what they were doing when they bought >> up all >> > of > >> those flavors of M. The Epic folks know what they are doing as well. >> >> Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, >> and >> > they > >> require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is >> probably the >> gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe >> you get >> some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. >> >> Tell all of the busy healh care worker why they have to wait when >> they >> should >> be taking care of patients so that you can get reports easily. The >> > patients > >> >> and those who care for them are not likely to be very understanding. >> >> On Saturday 11 June 2005 01:39 pm, Gillon, Joseph wrote: >> >>> Listen, I'm not sure what this says, but I somehow feel the need >>> to make >>> >> it >> >>> clear I have nothing but respect for VistA and its developers. >>> It was >>> great, in fact, still is, but the old gray mare ain't what she >>> used to >>> > be > >>> and is aging by the day. All systems that are worth a damn someday >>> > reach > >>> obsolescence. Which ain't to say VistA's going away any time soon. >>> > It's > >>> not hard to imagine a few years from now when several non-VA systems >>> > will > >>> be using it and the VA won't be. But the stuff the VA produces to >>> > replace > >>> it will be public domain too... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>> > Richard > >>> G. DAVIS >>> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:18 AM >>> To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>> Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == >>> >>> I understand the "dichotomy" Gregory mentions, and I agree with the >>> > views > >>> he has expressed. >>> >>> However, I believe the fundamental issue is less a technical >>> matter and >>> more an natural 'tension' between concerns for operational >>> effectiveness--delivery of quality health care, and the interest in >>> administrative IT that arises from management. These two groups >>> in most >>> any enterprise you may choose to study are chronically in a state of >>> 'conflict' due their different priorities and requirements for >>> IT, and >>> information management architecture. >>> >>> Where these competing forces arrive at a state of least tension, you >>> usually find that the two groups have separated their IT, both >>> software >>> >> and >> >>> hardware into two largely independent systems. >>> >>> For those who have been in university/college settings, you may >>> remember >>> that those institutions tend to have "academic" computer centers and >>> associated resources under the governance of some faculty body, and >>> separate "administrative" computer systems used to run the >>> university >>> controlled the the 'CEO' of the institution. >>> >>> DHCP has also been chronically plagued with an interesting form >>> of this >>> problem, that waxes and wanes over time. >>> >>> At present within the VA we see the administrative folks throwing >>> their >>> territorial imperatives around and not giving due consideration >>> to the >>> operational requirements of the enterprise. These 'conflicts' >>> are often >>> deflected into debates about hardware issues, and software system >>> > issues, > >>> all of which are usually not at all relevant to the bed-rock >>> forces at >>> >> work >> >>> here. The person who says "MUMPS is a dead language, get rid of >>> VistA" >>> simply doesnąt understand the problem. It is easier to indict a >>> >> technology >> >>> that can't defend itself, that to tackle the real core problem(s). >>> >>> Thus, the matter is not really about decentralized or centralized IT >>> resources. It is all about meeting the needs of health care >>> delivery >>> >> staff >> >>> and at the same time satisfying the needs of management. >>> >>> I am frequently convinced that the best outcomes are achieved with >>> organizational structures, and IT systems that permit two relatively >>> independent systems to coexist, one optimized for health care >>> delivery, >>> >> and >> >>> one optimized for organizational administration. (The obvious >>> need for >>> effective interaction between these two systems is a subordinate or >>> collateral matter to the core issue.) >>> >>> At the outset, DHCP was essentially free of intrusion of >>> administrative >>> demands. We built what seemed best for patient care. Only as >>> Congress >>> >> has >> >>> insisted that the DVA generate some revenue to supplement >>> appropriated >>> funds has the 'administrative' fist come down in a heavy handed >>> way on >>> > top > >>> of the health care interests. (Yes, there are other forces in >>> play here >>> >> as >> >>> well.) This trend has promoted increased 'tension' between the >>> > operational > >>> and administrative sides of the house. >>> >>> The process needs to be focused on the organizational behavior >>> issues >>> >> where >> >>> the natural conflicts between the two sides of the house can be >>> resolved >>> appropriately. These processes are not technology based or driven. >>> Instead, they are very much about organization and management. >>> (It is >>> > in > >>> the spirit of the best of breed bureaucrats who prefer diffusion of >>> responsibility and scape-goating of technology that we so often >>> see the >>> >> cry >> >>> to throw out the 'old' stuff.) >>> >>> Clearly, the VAH health care delivery process is mission critical >>> and >>> focused on the patient. The IT system need there is for a highly >>> 'decentralized' framework that is centered on the patient/caregiver >>> partnership. >>> >>> On the other hand, the DVA administration process must be able to >>> effectively manage the resources of the DVA to maintain its two main >>> > lines > >>> of business--entitlements and sick veterans. That requires a highly >>> 'centralized' IT framework that is centered on the problem of >>> enterprise >>> management. >>> >>> Whether these two groups are served by a single monolithic hardware >>> > system > >>> buried in a Colorado mountain, or by two slightly smaller computer >>> > systems > >>> situated at opposite ends of the Continental US, or by a massive >>> number >>> > of > >>> desktop computers is really not too important once the balance >>> between >>> these two competing groups has been achieved. After that, all us >>> 'techno-nerds' can go off and play with our cool software and >>> hardware. >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Richard. >>> >>> >>>> From: Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> Reply-To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:36:54 -0400 >>>> To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == >>>> >>>> The significant opportunity we have outside of the VA is to avoid >>>> repeating the "data problem". How can that best be done? I think >>>> > Greg's > >>>> option is on target....not sure if this would be called a >>>> "federated >>>> model"... >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> >>>>> There is, of course, another option, one that >>>>> has been explored in a limited way, but not yet fully realized, >>>>> that >>>>> > is > >>>>> to build loosely coupled systems that are, at once, >>>>> decentralized an >>>>> integrated (at the functional level). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Gregory Woodhouse wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is why I've never been very enamored of the original name of >>>>> >> VistA, >> >>>>> Decentralized Hospital Computer System (DHCP). It wasn't >>>>> > decentralized > >>>>> at all, but rather each DHCP system was one of a number of >>>>> > independent, > >>>>> facility level systems. An ant colony is an example of a >>>>> > decentralized > >>>>> system: there is no centralized control, yet the colony is able to >>>>> > work > >>>>> together to accomplish a common task. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, this false dichotomy has continued to plague >>>>> VistA and >>>>> the continued development of VistA. Far too often, centralized >>>>> >> solutions >> >>>>> (either data or control, or both) are thought to be the only >>>>> >> alternative >> >>>>> to completely independent application instances having no >>>>> ability to >>>>> work together effectively. There is, of course, another option, >>>>> one >>>>> >> that >> >>>>> has been explored in a limited way, but not yet fully realized, >>>>> that >>>>> > is > >>>>> to build loosely coupled systems that are, at once, >>>>> decentralized an >>>>> integrated (at the functional level). >>>>> >>>>> === >>>>> Gregory Woodhouse >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>>>> >>>>> "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement >>>>> >>>>> of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 10, 2005, at 2:30 PM, Sowinski, Richard J. wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> oe, your note title example can be explained in this way. For >>>>>> years >>>>>> Vista was used in a standalone manner. Each site, was >>>>>> essentially an >>>>>> island, that could create it's own note titles, lab test >>>>>> names, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then, software like RDV's and Vistaweb came along, and exposed >>>>>> (everyday) the fact that people used different terms at different >>>>>> sites, for essentially the same data. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not a software problem, it's a data problem. It's an >>>>>> > artifact > >>>>>> of making what was essentially a standalone system, into a >>>>>> networked >>>>>> system. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's cure, is standardization work. Unfortunately that work >>>>>> can be >>>>>> tedious and not as glorious as other work, which is why it has >>>>>> been >>>>>> > a > >>>>>> slow starter. But sooner or later that work will get done, and >>>>>> Vista >>>>>> will be around for awhile. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far >>>> can you >>>> >>> >>> shotput >>> >>> >>>> a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office >>>> > luge > >>> >>> track? >>> >>> >>>> If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. >>>> Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/? >>>> r=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Hardhats-members mailing list >>>> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can >>> you >>> shotput >>> a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the >>> office luge >>> track? >>> If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. >>> Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Hardhats-members mailing list >>> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can >>> you >>> shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the >>> > office > >>> luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the >>> little >>> >> guy. >> >>> Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Hardhats-members mailing list >>> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members >>> >> >> -- >> Nancy Anthracite >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you >> shotput >> a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office >> luge >> track? >> If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. >> Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r >> _______________________________________________ >> Hardhats-members mailing list >> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you >> > shotput > >> a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office >> luge >> > track? > >> If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. >> Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Hardhats-members mailing list >> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members >> >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can > you shotput > a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office > luge track? > If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. > Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 > _______________________________________________ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r _______________________________________________ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61" plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 _______________________________________________ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
