Yes, that's all true, but unfortunately the romanization system does not allow for the diphthong "ei," (yes, the tsere and yud form a diphthong, whether there's a sheva under the yud or not) and retooling the the standard is far more work than it's worth.
Please do use "ei" while transliterating. It is incorrect I think Aaron has an idea worth exploring: creating a rule to deal with foreign loans to accommodate the source and the form. On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote: > I second Janet’s romanization (for whatever that’s worth … J). Shabat > shalom, Jasmin > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu@lists. > osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir > *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2017 7:55 AM > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question > > > > The online Rav-Milim dictionary and Morfix are both products of Melingo > Ltd., a subsidiary of Britannica. Melingo owns the sites hosting those two > dictionaries as well as a few other Hebrew language related sites. > > https://melingo.com/en/ > > > > דייט is not a Hebrew word. It's a common transliteration of an English > word, widely used by Israelis, and pronounced approximately as "date" is > pronounced by American English speakers. Personally, I have never > encountered an Israeli who went on a "det" J. > > Here are a few minutes from an Israeli T.V. show. You can see what Israeli > children think of dates and hear how the children (and the presenter) > pronounce the word. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9TTGaXwOnk > > > > **Any Hebrew letter with a Sheva under it is consonantal** and cannot be > ignored in Romanization. > > > > The way I see it, using a y to indicate the Yod or ignoring the Sheva (and > the Yod) are both against our Romanization policy. > > · There is a Dalet. There's a Tsere under the Dalet. **de** > (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization Tables, HCM p. 10) > > · There's a Yod. There's a Sheva under it, which indicates that > it's consonantal. This consonantal Yod is not followed by a vowel. **i** > (HCM, P. 19) > > · There's a final Tet. **ṭ** (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization > Tables, HCM p. 10) > > > > I think that the issues of Yod, Sheva and foreign/loan words should all be > rethought and/or revised. They keep leading to problems. > > > > Shabbat shalom, > > Janet > > > > --- > > > > Janet Shamir > > Hebrew Cataloging Department > > National Library of Israel > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists. > osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org...@lists.osu.edu>] *On > Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner > > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:27 PM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question* > > > > Hi all, Rav-Milim was discussed at a 2006 AJL RAS Cataloging > Committee Meeting. Here is the record of what was decided. > > > > "Hebrew dictionaries to supplement Even-Shoshan need to be authorized, > especially for newer words. Rav milim and Morfix (online) were suggested. > Use of these can be recommended for libraries with access to them." > > > > I strongly encourage the cataloging committee to vote on the use of > Rav-Milim (not sure about the strength of the relationship between Morfix > and Rav-Milim, does anybody know)? We need to have an authorized source to > consult when vocalizing and transcribing new words that have entered the > Hebrew language regardless of origin. > > > > I much prefer the romanization of "דייט" or "דיט" to be "deṭ". > > > > I have never encountered a Hebrew word vocalized as "ey". Anyone seeing > "deyṭ" would consider it a Yiddish word; if the word is encountered in a > Yiddish context then I would romanize it as "Deyt". > > > > Best, Heidi > > > > Heidi G. Lerner > > Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica > > Metadata Dept. > > Stanford University Libraries > > Stanford, CA 94305-6004 > > ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953> > > fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120> > > e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford....@lists.osu.edu> on > behalf of Dickel, Geraldine <geraldine.dic...@yale.edu> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:37 AM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question* > > > > So then the Romanization should be deyṭ? > > > > Should the Cataloging Committee hold a vote on using Rav Milim or Morfix > as an authorized source for Romanization of words that are not found in the > most recent edition of Even-Shoshan? Or should we wait until next summer’s > cataloging committee meeting to discuss the question further? > > > > Best wishes, > > Jerry Anne Dickel > > > > Hebraica Catalog librarian > > Yale University Library > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu > <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir > > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:43 AM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> > > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question > > > > I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is not a case of Tsere Male. It is a Tsere > (Romanized as e), followed by a consonantal Yod (i). The Yod is not part of > the nikkud and therefore should be Romanized separately. > > Tsere Male is Romanized as "e" because according to the Sepharadi > tradition it is **not** vocalized as a diphthong. The correspondence with > the Academy of the Hebrew language, quoted by Haim, shows that the Sheva > under the Yod inדייט is there **to indicate the diphthong**, and that it > is* *not** vocalized as the Yod in בית, and therefore should not be > Romanized the same way. > > > > > > --- > > > > Janet Shamir > > Hebrew Cataloging Department > > National Library of Israel > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists. > osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org...@lists.osu.edu>] *On > Behalf Of *Yossi Galron > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:46 PM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question* > > > > So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have > to romanize it as Det. > > Am I correct? > > > > Yossi > > > > > > > Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger > > E-Mail: galro...@osu.edu or jgal...@gmail.com > > Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918> > > Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=> > > > > On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov> wrote: > > According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew > Language: > > > > “The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under > the יו"ד, thus: דֵּיְט.” > > > > And a follow up email > > > > “the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד > *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt"). > "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that > follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "be*t*").” > > > > > > Haim > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot=loc....@lists.osu.edu] *On > Behalf Of *Janet Shamir > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM > > > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question > > > > Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod > which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the > transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign > names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used > for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a > double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation. > > > > A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as טייפor דייט, as a > transliteration of the diphthong EY. > > They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two > consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent. > > > > In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words, > since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as > Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be > Romanized as such). > > If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as > they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which > contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation. > > According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized > as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be > vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/. > > Thus, I would Romanize טייפ and דייט as ṭeip and deiṭ, and words with > the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim, > as the diphthong is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules. > > Sometimes, יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew > transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my > opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen": פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין > (protection, > connection and collection). > > > > As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the > vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be > contacted online with questions/corrections. > > Their policy is described here: > > http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=F1lPlYpbMhMXa9wLazXM0htaalJbh-CEZhP8f7rM8pI&e=> > > > > > > --- > > > > Janet Shamir > > Hebrew Cataloging Department > > National Library of Israel > > > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il@lists. > osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org...@lists.osu.edu>] *On > Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question* > > > > mea culpa: > > > > in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be > romanized as "deṭ' > > > > > > I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for > romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered > the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there > or in Alcalay. > > > > i believe that we talked about this in years gone by. > > > > > > > > Heidi G. Lerner > > Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica > > Metadata Dept. > > Stanford University Libraries > > Stanford, CA 94305-6004 > > ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953> > > fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120> > > e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Yossi > Galron <jgal...@gmail.com> > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM > > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > > *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question* > > > > Our rule is that it should be Dait (two Yods are "ai") > > > > Yossi > > > > > > > Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger > > E-Mail: galro...@osu.edu or jgal...@gmail.com > > Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918> > > Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=> > > > > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov> wrote: > > Dear colleagues: > > > > How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries, > nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is > pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Haim > > > > ************************************************************************** > > Haim A Gottschalk (Librarian) > > Library of Congress, Israel and Judaica Section > > 101 Independence Avenue, SE, LM-537 (4222) > > Washington, D.C. 20540-4222 U.S.A. > > > > Phone - +1 (202) 707-2498 <(202)%20707-2498> * Fax - +1 (202) 707-4587 > <(202)%20707-4587> * h...@loc.gov > > > > *THIS EMAIL IS NOT CLASSIFIED.* > > *Ideas & opinions in this email are not intended to represent those of the > Library of Congress or its staff.* > > > > ***Please remember the environment and only print this if necessary*** > > > > [image: cid:3406095300_24711525] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Heb-naco mailing list > > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > <Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> > > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.osu.edu_mailman_listinfo_heb-2Dnaco&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=FSZzgtCpYhA2Dn24E5Wbt5l_tXoDJZm9XSA1R11ho4c&e=> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Heb-naco mailing list > > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > <Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> > > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.osu.edu_mailman_listinfo_heb-2Dnaco&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=FSZzgtCpYhA2Dn24E5Wbt5l_tXoDJZm9XSA1R11ho4c&e=> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing list > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > > -- Bob Talbott Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger UC Berkeley 250 Moffitt Berkeley, CA 94720 I'm just mad about Saffron
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