Thanks Jasmin – I thought you’d have the answer! From: Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@upenn.edu> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 7:45 PM To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>; Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov> Subject: FW: Romanisation of - phot of E. ha-I
⚠ Caution: External sender Thank you, Haim! Per the attached photo of the needed page from E. ha-‘I., we see the correct romanization is be-Bizanṭiyon. Kol tuv, Jasmin From: Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov>> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 2:37 PM To: Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@upenn.edu<mailto:jsh...@upenn.edu>> Subject: RE: Romanisation of - phot of E. ha-I Hi Jasmin, here is a photo of the entry in Enc. Ha-I. Haim From: Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@upenn.edu<mailto:jsh...@upenn.edu>> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 2:15 PM To: Galron, Joseph <galro...@osu.edu<mailto:galro...@osu.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>; Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov>>; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>> Subject: RE: Romanisation of בביזנטיון CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on links. Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects of romanization have gotten mixed together. 1. Per HCM-RDA, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found there, the form in Entsiklopedyah ha-‘Ivrit (E. ha-‘I.). E-Sh. has an entry for בִּיזַנְטִי and within the definition gives the form בִּיזַנְטוֹן, but there is no entry or usage of ביזנטיון in E-Sh. The entry for ביזנטיון is in v.8 of E. ha-‘I.; unfortunately, the Internet Archive scan<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/archive.org/details/2_20200322_20200322_1243/Encyclopaedia_Hebraica_Vol8/page/n179/mode/2up__;!!IBzWLUs!W9Zfonaj6m2wjLCLYk-HXLCit6uyqByfwcCIZPqeGO32MsHVJPudl0ePya25k2zMvl6VjT1FNEwo$> is a bit blurry and it’s not clear what, if any, vocalization is present under the letters ב and ט. I’ve requested the hard copy from our off-site storage. The ṿaṿ has a ḥolam, so it’s definitely Biz…on not Biz…un. 1. The examples given of בני ברק and בבל are both of Hebrew names/words; as such, rules of aspiration apply, yielding the forms be-Vavel and bi-Vene Berak, along with bi-Verit ha-Mo’atsot as Yossi explained. Hebrew grammar rules applied to Hebrew names cannot be used to infer treatment of non-Hebrew/foreign names. (I.e., be-Vavel =/=> be-Viz…on) 1. ביזנטיון is a foreign word/name, as is ברלין. Searching LC for forms of בברלין yields the expected be-Berlin. The same treatment would follow for בביזנטיון à be-Bizanṭyon/be-Bizanṭiyon (pending what’s found in E. ha-‘I.). For בברוקלין, LC has a mix of be- and bi-Bruḳlin. Notably, there is no bX-Vruḳlin. Per HCM-RDA, p. 17, “These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.” Bi-Bruḳlin is correct. 1. בירושלים is romanized as bi-Yerushalayim for separate, unrelated reasons, and has no relation to the romanization of other place names that either do or do not follow Hebrew grammar rules of aspiration and vowel-heightening (depending on their origin). 1. HCM-RDA, p. 18, specifically states that the correct form is be-Polin, not be-Folin. I’m sure all our catalogs have wrong forms, not just LC. 😊 Regarding the instruction “A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable”, I agree that it could be more helpful. I think most loan words are treated as exempt from the rules of aspiration/non-aspiration; exceptions are indicated in the Romanization FAQ<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ__;JQ!!IBzWLUs!W9Zfonaj6m2wjLCLYk-HXLCit6uyqByfwcCIZPqeGO32MsHVJPudl0ePya25k2zMvl6Vje7yEtyU$> (see entries under ב and פ). I noted that this section needs revision. Please let me know if there are any questions! Thanks, Jasmin From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn....@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn....@lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 12:05 PM To: Gottschalk, Haim <h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew names according to the rules of the Hebrew language. A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of those there are 2 records from LC). Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, etc.) That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party complained that the government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, and that ended the discussion. Yossi From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM To: Freedman, Vanessa <v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we Romanize בירושלים as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim. My 3.37 cents. Best, Haim __________ Haim A. Gottschalk Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian Asian and Middle Eastern Division, Israel and Judaica Section Onsite Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays The Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, SE, LM-537 Washington, DC 20540-4222 Direct: 202-707-2498 h...@loc.gov<mailto:h...@loc.gov> [cid:image001.jpg@01D9C469.7E01AEF0] THIS EMAIL IS NOT CLASSIFIED Expressing my views. Ideas & opinions in this email are not intended to represent those of the Library of Congress or its staff. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM To: Heb-NACO (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>) <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on links. How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison Librarian: How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies Pronouns: she/her Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm Main Library UCL Library Services Library, Culture, Collections & Open Science Gower Street London WC1E 6BT Tel: 020 7679 2598 E-mail: v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freed...@ucl.ac.uk> Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!z9mAP-mxIhjfBGaljCdpUotlJPfWiPh7Ic2GPrr1Bef-vvMks7n_EX8KzaKl7htjdKOENumLLAu_H_ejEV7mBnLAz7E$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!0NLGSmZCIJq7_oWDMaNiYxLaV6RJ4ntfT_nwD58UlBCk-TdFb_AShY4oAQlh3H3j88cBfRzqqTpsc-8MeYu3Yk7DjLA$> **Please remember the environment and only print this if necessary**
_______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
