So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis. I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or find a suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created, obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a global one at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since the last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it. We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used to it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users to occasionally come chat with us. As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is all buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet. I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by the 1-1 history issue :). From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term. I suppose we'll see. -- Guillaume On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> wrote: > The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems to be > the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows > unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least). Gitter > has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people per > private room. > > You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/ > > Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the decommissioning of > HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason to > keep looking for another solution? > > For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular with > notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client > everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job. > > Yoann Rodière > Hibernate NoORM Team > yo...@hibernate.org > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> wrote: > > > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private room, > > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the chat > > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we can > only > > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in > rooms. > > > > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the very > > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip, > > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they end up > > choosing and why? > > > > Yoann Rodière > > Hibernate NoORM Team > > yo...@hibernate.org > > > > > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > wrote: > >> > >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be > >>> too successful as well > >>> > >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think > forcing > >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I can't > suggest > >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links > (documentation, > >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that could be > >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes > >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but that > >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or making > the > >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a while > >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while > offline). > >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know. > >>> > >>> > More just accountability. But if some form of login in needed to use > >>> Gitter, that's enough for me. Sounded like the other option was "allow > >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid. > >>> > >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to read > >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in > order to > >>> start posting new messages. > >>> > >>> Yoann Rodière > >>> Hibernate NoORM Team > >>> yo...@hibernate.org > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <st...@hibernate.org> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people". More just > >>>> accountability. But if some form of login in needed to use Gitter, > that's > >>>> enough for me. Sounded like the other option was "allow anonymous", > which > >>>> I wanted to avoid. > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <sa...@hibernate.org > > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub account, > >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ok. > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's relevant. > >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are likely > to not > >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists) > rather than > >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate" naming > might > >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I doubt my > >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my non-software-engineer > of a > >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake. > >>>>> > >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a different way > >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in > technology > >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some research > >>>>> before bothering us all. > >>>>> > >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard times in > >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many > >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that could be > >>>>> easily solved otherwise. > >>>>> > >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of course I > >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just people > >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm confident > that > >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity (e.g. > >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account). > >>>>> > >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be > >>>>> too successful as well. But I guess we'll see, or let's use a very > >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Yoann Rodière > >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team > >>>>> > yo...@hibernate.org > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <sa...@hibernate.org > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <st...@hibernate.org > > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub account > >>>>> to join these rooms? I just noticed that is a toggle-option in the > room's > >>>>> settings also. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in > 2014.. > >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like that, > I > >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of > people > >>>>> >> to join. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Thanks, > >>>>> >> Sanne > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet < > >>>>> guillaume.s...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero < > >>>>> sa...@hibernate.org> > >>>>> >> >> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack is the > >>>>> way to > >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll need > >>>>> to be > >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if > that's > >>>>> not > >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for me but > >>>>> yeah not > >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if you > ping > >>>>> me :). > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients don't > >>>>> have > >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that? > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my > >>>>> interactions with > >>>>> >> >> people. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb (and not > >>>>> very excited > >>>>> >> >> about compiling it). > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it if > >>>>> they want to > >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some work to > >>>>> do to catch > >>>>> >> >> up with others. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> -- > >>>>> >> >> Guillaume > >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list > >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list > >>>>> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >>>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
