I am never on HipChat at this point. So don't expect any important matters to be discussed there ;)
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM Sanne Grinovero <sa...@hibernate.org> wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:25, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> wrote: > > > > > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter > is a > > new line in your message > > > > There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you > only > > have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button, I'm > sure > > you saw it :) > > But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more > > about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious > > from the start. > > > > I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how > > well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see > > much activity on HipChat anymore. > > Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we > never decided we're migrating to Gitter. > > I'm certainly not on Gitter regularly nor right now, so I'm expecting > any important matter to be discussed on mailing lists or HipChat. > > > > > Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I can > > see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is > the > > confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat, > > announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website, > > and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we want > > to avoid. > > > > So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we > trust > > it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of > > years)? > > > > Yoann Rodière > > Hibernate NoORM Team > > yo...@hibernate.org > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.s...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis. > > > > > > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly. > > > > > > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or > find a > > > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created, > > > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a > global one > > > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use > > > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your > > > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since > the > > > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it. > > > > > > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used > to > > > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users > to > > > occasionally come chat with us. > > > > > > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is > all > > > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet. > > > > > > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by > > > the 1-1 history issue :). > > > > > > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I > > > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term. > > > > > > I suppose we'll see. > > > > > > -- > > > Guillaume > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > wrote: > > > > > >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems > to be > > >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows > > >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least). > Gitter > > >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people > per > > >> private room. > > >> > > >> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/ > > >> > > >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the > decommissioning > > >> of > > >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason > to > > >> keep looking for another solution? > > >> > > >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular > with > > >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client > > >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job. > > >> > > >> Yoann Rodière > > >> Hibernate NoORM Team > > >> yo...@hibernate.org > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > wrote: > > >> > > >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private > room, > > >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the > chat > > >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we > can > > >> only > > >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in > > >> rooms. > > >> > > > >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the > very > > >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip, > > >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they > end > > >> up > > >> > choosing and why? > > >> > > > >> > Yoann Rodière > > >> > Hibernate NoORM Team > > >> > yo...@hibernate.org > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> > > >> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it > might be > > >> >>> too successful as well > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think > > >> forcing > > >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I > can't > > >> suggest > > >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links > > >> (documentation, > > >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that > could > > >> be > > >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes > > >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but > that > > >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or > making > > >> the > > >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a > > >> while > > >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while > > >> offline). > > >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > More just accountability. But if some form of login in needed > to > > >> use > > >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me. Sounded like the other option was > > >> "allow > > >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to > > >> read > > >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in > > >> order to > > >> >>> start posting new messages. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Yoann Rodière > > >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team > > >> >>> yo...@hibernate.org > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <st...@hibernate.org > > > > >> >>> wrote: > > >> >>> > > >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people". More > just > > >> >>>> accountability. But if some form of login in needed to use > Gitter, > > >> that's > > >> >>>> enough for me. Sounded like the other option was "allow > anonymous", > > >> which > > >> >>>> I wanted to avoid. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero < > > >> sa...@hibernate.org> > > >> >>>> wrote: > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere < > yo...@hibernate.org> > > >> >>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub > account, > > >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Ok. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's > > >> relevant. > > >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are > likely > > >> to not > > >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists) > > >> rather than > > >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate" > naming > > >> might > > >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I > doubt > > >> my > > >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my > non-software-engineer > > >> of a > > >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a > different > > >> way > > >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in > > >> technology > > >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some > > >> research > > >> >>>>> before bothering us all. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard > times in > > >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many > > >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that > could > > >> be > > >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of > course > > >> I > > >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just > people > > >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm > confident > > >> that > > >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity > (e.g. > > >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account). > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it > might be > > >> >>>>> too successful as well. But I guess we'll see, or let's use a > very > > >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière > > >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team > > >> >>>>> > yo...@hibernate.org > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero < > > >> sa...@hibernate.org> > > >> >>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole < > > >> st...@hibernate.org> > > >> >>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>> >> > > > >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub > account > > >> >>>>> to join these rooms? I just noticed that is a toggle-option in > the > > >> room's > > >> >>>>> settings also. > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in > > >> 2014.. > > >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently. > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like > > >> that, I > > >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of > > >> people > > >> >>>>> >> to join. > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> Thanks, > > >> >>>>> >> Sanne > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> > > >> >>>>> >> > > > >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet < > > >> >>>>> guillaume.s...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero < > > >> >>>>> sa...@hibernate.org> > > >> >>>>> >> >> wrote: > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack > is > > >> the > > >> >>>>> way to > > >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll > need > > >> >>>>> to be > > >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if > > >> that's > > >> >>>>> not > > >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy. > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for > me > > >> but > > >> >>>>> yeah not > > >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying. > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time. > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if > you > > >> ping > > >> >>>>> me :). > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients > > >> don't > > >> >>>>> have > > >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that? > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my > > >> >>>>> interactions with > > >> >>>>> >> >> people. > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb > (and not > > >> >>>>> very excited > > >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it). > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it > if > > >> >>>>> they want to > > >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some > work to > > >> >>>>> do to catch > > >> >>>>> >> >> up with others. > > >> >>>>> >> >> > > >> >>>>> >> >> -- > > >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume > > >> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list > > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > > >> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list > > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > > >> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> hibernate-dev mailing list > > >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hibernate-dev mailing list > > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
