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Today's Topics:
1. Re: server crashes w/ new update (artiecs)
2. Re: Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean? (sprout)
3. RE: server crashes w/ new update (Alfred Reynolds)
4. Re: Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean? (Whisper)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: "artiecs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:41:19 -0400
Reply-To: [email protected]
Alfred, would it be possible for you guys to provide to the plugin writers,
via the API, the ability to continue creating the menus they currently use,
in addition to the ESC menu capabilities? I know it sounds like you don't
appreciate their current implementation method, which is understandable, bu=
t
if something could be added to the API to allow this functionality to be
'legal', it would prolly make all parties involved happy. Then they wouldnt=
'
be 'hackin' the server code, and everyone would still have the menu's they
like. Just a thought.
- Artie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 4:15 AM
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
They were warned multiple times to not use the hacks they were, so it is
upon their own heads.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of PiTaGoRaS Sent:
Friday, May 20, 2005 1:10 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
I will never understand why Valve make this this kind of "fixes" that
broke something else without any warning. Is it so dificult to
contact with the Mani/AMX plugin devs, for example, some days before
relase so they are able to update their code and everybody is happy?
... really tired of this.
Alfred Reynolds escribi=F3 (Fri, 20 May 2005 00:49:04 -0700):
They are using an undocumented hack to display those menus, this
update removes the hack and so they can no longer use it (because
the last subsystem that was using it, radio menus, has finally been
fixed to be client side). They have a plugin API to display
messages to users and get feedback, they should use that.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K2 Sent:
Friday, May 20, 2005 12:43 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
Thx Alfred for staying on top of this and offering a roll-back.
Looking forward to the fix.
Something else tho that I believe needs to be addressed. The Mani
plugin as well as Beetles plugin no longer work as intended - the
AMX-style menus no longer function. A quote from Beetle: 'valve
stopped any commands from the menus being sent to the server... I
have no idea of any way to do it now..'
Was this intentional or part of the problem with the new binary?
- K2
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alfred
Reynolds Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:35 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes
w/ new update
I am going to do an update soon that will roll the binary back
(but keep the new de_inferno, it had a couple valuable fixes perf
wise). The de_inferno update made the whole update mandatory.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon
Garner Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 10:26 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: [hlds] server crashes
w/ new update
On 20/05/2005 3:47 p.m., Alfred Reynolds wrote:
I have had a couple reports of this happening on de_port.
Does anyone get it on any other Valve maps? (not third party
ones).
- Alfred
Seems to be happening on all maps.
Save us Alfred, teh servers are dyiinng!
On a related note, why was this a required update anyway? I
wasn't even going to bother updating as I hadn't had any
trouble with the two issues it was fixing, but unfortunately I
was forced to. :(
-Simon
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--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "sprout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:42:24 -0500
Reply-To: [email protected]
country and western? did I miss something?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Whisper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
We like both types of music here
Country AND Western!
:D
On 5/21/05, sprout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I run 2 40 person servers on a p4 3.0 ghz 1 gig of ram with about 40
people
total im running about 85% usage(working on getting a duel processor
computer) that should fix alot of my problems with low fps
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
Out of interest, how much cpu do others think a 40 slot game server
would take when fully loaded? Not sure if you said what spec the CPUs
are. I'd probably guess its about right (can't be "that" far off
whatever) and expect most current CPUs to hit 85% or so with that.
On 5/20/05, Whisper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
There does appear to be a correlation between the FPS and the CPU
numbers
The 18 player server though seems to cope quite well with:
fps_max 600
sv_maxrate 2000
sv_maxupdaterate 120
tickrate 100
whilst maintaining >500 FPS
The 40 player server though (which I never expect to run constantly at
500 fps) seems to cope quite well with:
fps_max 600
sv_maxrate 2000
sv_maxupdaterate 100
tickrate 66
The but the overall playing experience on the 40 Player server for
people
with client computers that can keep up, results in a excellent end
result
especially considering the numbers of players.
On 5/20/05, Alexander Kobbevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Look at the FPS though... it drops, right?
And maybe the stats command stress the CPU or HLDS? :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Whisper
Sent: 20. mai 2005 06:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Clayton the sampling might be correct, but how would that explain
the
results I get when I spam "rcon stats" into console and receive
numbers
that
are all within 10% of each other?
Here is exmple:
14:03:37 stats
14:03:37 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.53 73784.24 227882.64 177 6 56.87 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.53 74690.58 228744.00 177 6 63.98 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 75565.57 229665.05 177 6 35.32 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 76380.45 231317.58 177 6 34.13 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 77197.75 232984.47 177 6 34.13 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 77256.87 234898.08 177 6 30.10 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77242.05 236992.31 177 6 26.96 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77264.55 238138.23 177 6 33.02 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77243.81 238387.27 177 6 33.04 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 77214.17 238615.45 177 6 40.99 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 77057.98 238889.06 177 6 34.12 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 76746.83 239109.53 177 6 33.05 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 76242.27 239287.92 177 6 57.57 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75778.00 238699.22 177 6 37.94 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75704.43 238780.63 177 6 60.21 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75405.64 238652.98 177 6 25.60 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75245.19 238275.91 177 6 28.43 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75358.87 238213.38 177 6 27.67 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75571.36 237885.63 177 6 28.46 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 76112.34 237668.05 177 6 30.11 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 76824.73 237348.69 177 6 60.34 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 77527.95 237276.89 177 6 36.56 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 77854.19 237533.16 177 6 46.56 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 77517.18 238679.83 177 6 34.15 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 77084.93 240084.63 177 6 36.57 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 76791.86 241383.80 177 6 31.04 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 76871.59 242368.47 177 6 22.76 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 77053.85 242882.44 177 6 23.81 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 77454.66 242307.06 177 6 32.04 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 78062.38 240988.48 177 6 35.32 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 78272.21 239666.45 177 6 32.02 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.83 78384.60 238314.08 177 6 36.57 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.83 78409.96 237305.31 177 6 33.04 39
Now you cannot tell me that this is not odd and that this is some
sort
of
time sampling mismatch
task manager ought to damn well show something that approximates
what
SRCDS
is reporting back or vice versa, but it does not!
On 5/20/05, Clayton Macleod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
true, but you have to sample for a certain period of time to get a
percentage reading. Obviously I'm just guessing that the period
that
the game's using is shorter than the period that task manager
uses,
but it would seem to make sense considering the observations. Why
would that be so hard to accept? If you're only sampling usage for
0.1
seconds and you see a 99% value there's nothing wrong with that,
even
if task manager only showed 10% usage at the same time, since task
manager samples for 1.0 seconds and it could have been idle for
the
other 0.9 seconds, which would indeed mean 10% usage for task
manager's period.
On 5/19/05, Whisper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Well it is not like anybody has stepped up and stated
categorically
what
it
really means and is able to explain the discrepancies between
the
2
that
a
critically thinking human being would accept.
--
Clayton Macleod
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--__--__--
Message: 3
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:00:04 -0700
From: "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
I would love the authors of these programs to contact me and discuss their =
needs. We are trying to minimise the visual clutter that plugins introduce =
in the game, but we are always flexible (we will not tie ourselves to maint=
aining out of date code just because they found a way to trigger it however=
).
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of artiecs Sent:
Friday, May 20, 2005 10:41 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
Alfred, would it be possible for you guys to provide to the plugin
writers, via the API, the ability to continue creating the menus they
currently use, in addition to the ESC menu capabilities? I know it
sounds like you don't appreciate their current implementation method,
which is understandable, but if something could be added to the API
to allow this functionality to be 'legal', it would prolly make all
parties involved happy. Then they wouldnt' be 'hackin' the server
code, and everyone would still have the menu's they like. Just a
thought.
- Artie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 4:15 AM
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
They were warned multiple times to not use the hacks they were, so it
is upon their own heads.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of PiTaGoRaS
Sent:
Friday, May 20, 2005 1:10 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
I will never understand why Valve make this this kind of "fixes"
that broke something else without any warning. Is it so dificult to
contact with the Mani/AMX plugin devs, for example, some days
before relase so they are able to update their code and everybody
is happy?
... really tired of this.
Alfred Reynolds escribi=F3 (Fri, 20 May 2005 00:49:04 -0700):
They are using an undocumented hack to display those menus, this
update removes the hack and so they can no longer use it (because
the last subsystem that was using it, radio menus, has finally
been fixed to be client side). They have a plugin API to display
messages to users and get feedback, they should use that.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K2 Sent:
Friday, May 20, 2005 12:43 AM To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes w/ new update
Thx Alfred for staying on top of this and offering a roll-back.
Looking forward to the fix.
Something else tho that I believe needs to be addressed. The
Mani plugin as well as Beetles plugin no longer work as
intended - the AMX-style menus no longer function. A quote from
Beetle: 'valve stopped any commands from the menus being sent
to the server... I have no idea of any way to do it now..'
Was this intentional or part of the problem with the new binary?
- K2
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alfred
Reynolds Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:35 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: RE: [hlds] server crashes
w/ new update
I am going to do an update soon that will roll the binary back
(but keep the new de_inferno, it had a couple valuable fixes
perf wise). The de_inferno update made the whole update
mandatory.
- Alfred
----Original Message----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon
Garner Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 10:26 PM To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: [hlds] server crashes
w/ new update
On 20/05/2005 3:47 p.m., Alfred Reynolds wrote:
I have had a couple reports of this happening on de_port.
Does anyone get it on any other Valve maps? (not third
party ones).
- Alfred
Seems to be happening on all maps.
Save us Alfred, teh servers are dyiinng!
On a related note, why was this a required update anyway? I
wasn't even going to bother updating as I hadn't had any
trouble with the two issues it was fixing, but unfortunately
I was forced to. :(
-Simon
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--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 04:37:19 +1000
From: Whisper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
Reply-To: [email protected]
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Yeah, sprout, you missed the point of the entire thread!!!
On 5/21/05, sprout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
country and western? did I miss something?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Whisper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
We like both types of music here
Country AND Western!
:D
On 5/21/05, sprout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I run 2 40 person servers on a p4 3.0 ghz 1 gig of ram with about 40
people
total im running about 85% usage(working on getting a duel processor
computer) that should fix alot of my problems with low fps
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
Out of interest, how much cpu do others think a 40 slot game server
would take when fully loaded? Not sure if you said what spec the CPUs
are. I'd probably guess its about right (can't be "that" far off
whatever) and expect most current CPUs to hit 85% or so with that.
On 5/20/05, Whisper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
There does appear to be a correlation between the FPS and the CPU
numbers
The 18 player server though seems to cope quite well with:
fps_max 600
sv_maxrate 2000
sv_maxupdaterate 120
tickrate 100
whilst maintaining >500 FPS
The 40 player server though (which I never expect to run constantly
at
500 fps) seems to cope quite well with:
fps_max 600
sv_maxrate 2000
sv_maxupdaterate 100
tickrate 66
The but the overall playing experience on the 40 Player server for
people
with client computers that can keep up, results in a excellent end
result
especially considering the numbers of players.
On 5/20/05, Alexander Kobbevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Look at the FPS though... it drops, right?
And maybe the stats command stress the CPU or HLDS? :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Whisper
Sent: 20. mai 2005 06:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [hlds] Re: What does RCON STATS CPU Really mean?
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Clayton the sampling might be correct, but how would that explain
the
results I get when I spam "rcon stats" into console and receive
numbers
that
are all within 10% of each other?
Here is exmple:
14:03:37 stats
14:03:37 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.53 73784.24 227882.64 177 6 56.87 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.53 74690.58 228744.00 177 6 63.98 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 75565.57 229665.05 177 6 35.32 39
14:03:38 stats
14:03:38 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 76380.45 231317.58 177 6 34.13 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 77197.75 232984.47 177 6 34.13 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
86.77 77256.87 234898.08 177 6 30.10 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77242.05 236992.31 177 6 26.96 39
14:03:39 stats
14:03:39 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77264.55 238138.23 177 6 33.02 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
95.31 77243.81 238387.27 177 6 33.04 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 77214.17 238615.45 177 6 40.99 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 77057.98 238889.06 177 6 34.12 39
14:03:40 stats
14:03:40 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 76746.83 239109.53 177 6 33.05 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.57 76242.27 239287.92 177 6 57.57 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75778.00 238699.22 177 6 37.94 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:41 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75704.43 238780.63 177 6 60.21 39
14:03:41 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
94.30 75405.64 238652.98 177 6 25.60 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75245.19 238275.91 177 6 28.43 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75358.87 238213.38 177 6 27.67 39
14:03:42 stats
14:03:42 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 75571.36 237885.63 177 6 28.46 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
93.41 76112.34 237668.05 177 6 30.11 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 76824.73 237348.69 177 6 60.34 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:43 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 77527.95 237276.89 177 6 36.56 39
14:03:43 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
89.06 77854.19 237533.16 177 6 46.56 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 77517.18 238679.83 177 6 34.15 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 77084.93 240084.63 177 6 36.57 39
14:03:44 stats
14:03:44 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 76791.86 241383.80 177 6 31.04 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
90.63 76871.59 242368.47 177 6 22.76 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 77053.85 242882.44 177 6 23.81 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:45 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 77454.66 242307.06 177 6 32.04 39
14:03:45 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 78062.38 240988.48 177 6 35.32 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.71 78272.21 239666.45 177 6 32.02 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.83 78384.60 238314.08 177 6 36.57 39
14:03:46 stats
14:03:46 CPU In Out Uptime Users FPS Players
91.83 78409.96 237305.31 177 6 33.04 39
Now you cannot tell me that this is not odd and that this is some
sort
of
time sampling mismatch
task manager ought to damn well show something that approximates
what
SRCDS
is reporting back or vice versa, but it does not!
On 5/20/05, Clayton Macleod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
true, but you have to sample for a certain period of time to get
a
percentage reading. Obviously I'm just guessing that the period
that
the game's using is shorter than the period that task manager
uses,
but it would seem to make sense considering the observations.
Why
would that be so hard to accept? If you're only sampling usage
for
0.1
seconds and you see a 99% value there's nothing wrong with that,
even
if task manager only showed 10% usage at the same time, since
task
manager samples for 1.0 seconds and it could have been idle for
the
other 0.9 seconds, which would indeed mean 10% usage for task
manager's period.
On 5/19/05, Whisper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Well it is not like anybody has stepped up and stated
categorically
what
it
really means and is able to explain the discrepancies between
the
2
that
a
critically thinking human being would accept.
--
Clayton Macleod
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End of hlds Digest
