In message <cagodq5moeqda95bnr3jeglpnq0vtdq7mqmpk_aqoxcumaah...@mail.gmail.com> Benjamin Kerensa writes: > --e89a8f234cc38c7df504c6b10d5c > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Mark Andrews <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > In message <[email protected]>, Curtis > > Villamizar writes: > > > > > > In message <[email protected]> > > > Brian E Carpenter writes: > > > > > > > On 31/07/2012 17:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > >>>>>> "Brian" == Brian E Carpenter <Brian> writes: > > > > > >> I'm also surprised that we think we have to cope with flash > > renumbering > > > > > >> as a regular event, rather than a service-interrupting, ISP > > truck roll > > > > > >> catastrophy. > > > > > > > > > > Brian> But every time you reboot your antiquated v4-only CPE > > > > > Brian> and/or the antiquated > > > > > Brian> v4-only PCs behind it, the PCs all get new IP addresses, > > > > > Brian> which may or > > > > > Brian> may not be the same as the previous time. There's nothing > > > > > Brian> new in flash > > > > > Brian> renumbering for homenets. Not handling this would be a > > step > > > > > Brian> backwards. > > > > > > > > > > Well... > > > > > > > > > > 1) sure, but the *customer* does this, not the ISP. > > > > > 2) the clients do have DHCP leases, and if they ask to renew their > > > > > previous IP, it usually gets honored. > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter whether it's the user or the ISP that triggers a > > > > change, does it? > > > > > > > > The point is, users don't care about this, except if they reach their > > > > shiny new wireless printer via its IP static address. There are > > > > definitely parts of draft-ietf-6renum-static-problem that apply here. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > Enterprise renumbering and homenet renumbering are generally quite > > > different. Most homehets have short uptimes. Most enterprises have > > > very long uptimes. (insert favorite Microsoft reliability joke here). > > > > Define short? There are plenty of homes with equipment that isn't > > powered down every day and that has been up for months. > > > > I don't know about other but I maintain ssh connections for weeks > > from home to the main office at work. > > > > > If a renumbering is done right, there is an time when both the old and > > > new numbers are in use. As in "ifconfig <intf> inet6 newaddr > > > ... alias" in the *ix world. During that transition time any use of > > > DHCP will hand out the new address. Then comes a time when the leases > > > refuse to be renewed. Then the old addresses go away. This can be > > > day, weeks, or longer depending on the size of the transition. During > > > that time a lot of "please reboot at least once ..." messages get > > > sent. > > > > What's the dhcp stuff in the home? RA's work fine here. What is > > needed is a way to signal in the DNS to only use a deprecated address > > as a last resort measure. Named to address and address to name > > mappings need to exist until after the address has ceased being > > used. > > > > > Today there is no DHCP help in avoiding the "please reboot" messages. > > > It should be possible for a DHCP client (ISC guys, are you out there?) > > > to do the following if a lease can't be renew and a new address is > > > provided: > > > > > > 1. Add the new address using an "ifconfig <intf> ... alias" > > > equivalent. > > > > > > 2. Check (using netstat -an equivalent) for use of the old address. > > > Don't delete the old address if a socket still exists. > > > > > > 3. Periodically repeat step 2 until there is no connection using > > > the old address. > > > > > > 4. Delete the old address using the equivalent of "ifconfig <intf> > > > ... -alias". > > > > Actually you should be asking the OS vendors / distro maintainers > > to do this and send fixes to ISC. This is all done in shell scripts > > that are highly customised to the client platform. There isn't one > > linux script that works for all linux distros. > > > > Unfortunately this is true and this hopefully in the future will be more > standardized.
Can someone, maybe someone from ISC, suggest an OS vendor neutral mailing list where this thread can be continued. I've done a little preliminary poking into code, both BSD kernel code and ISC DHCP and would be willing to help. Curtis > > This also doesn't work for many udp based services. > > > > > This would work for all client side connects that either were done > > > before the end of the transition period. For home nets this covers > > > 99.something percent of the sites with no user intervention or reboot. > > > > > > This requires no protocol change, just better coding in the DHCP > > > client software. > > > > > > What this does not cover is a service that is listenning on a well > > > known port. This is rare among home nets (except for homes of readers > > > of IETF lists) but very common among enterprises. > > > > At the moment. There is no good reason to not be listening on > > standard ports if you want to provide your own servers within the > > home. DNS will almost certainly be done if only to as hidden > > masters. Just publish your current addresses in the DNS and they > > can be reached. Cable and DSL are always on services. Homes are > > no longer dialup. > > > > I disagree with the assertion that "Homes" are no longer on dial-up since a > good portion of Rural America still does not have Broadband which means > millions are still on Dial-Up and I hear parts of Europe still use Dial-Up. > > > > > > Many points made about license servers, etc in > > > draft-ietf-6renum-static-problem don't apply to home nets. > > > > > > Renumbering an enterprise is doable. Renumbering my home net has been > > > quite easy. I've done it a few times already and I'm sure will have > > > to again. The procedure suggested above is just done manually. > > > > > > One hint is that on BSD and Linux at least a "netstat -an" should > > > reveal any listens on old addresses. An automated scan on an > > > enterprise network can identify servers and services needing a > > > reconfig and a service restart without any system reboot. [ Microsoft > > > systems may need to reboot or power down and remove the CMOS battery > > > from the motherboard or maybe buy new hardware. :-) ] > > > > > > > > > > > > > In IPv6 space, the host part will generally stay the same (modulo > > > > > privacy extensions, which are default on for some clients). We've > > said > > > > > that the ULA ought to stay the same, so in fact, I agree, the > > internal > > > > > addresses actually all stay the same. > > > > > > > > > > I'm still surprised that an ISP will need to flash renumber faster > > than > > > > > it can just expire leases. If it's just repartitioning of network to > > > > > deal with growth, that ought to be predictable and prefix lifetimes > > can > > > > > be reduced in advance. > > > > > > > > > > If it's actually some equipment failing, resulting in service > > > > > interruptions, and then restoration by rewiring the network... then I > > > > > understand. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > homenet mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > -- > > Mark Andrews, ISC > > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > > homenet mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > > > > > -- > Benjamin Kerensa > *Team Lead, *Ubuntu Oregon > http://ubuntu-oregon.org > Phone: 503-894-6005 x701 > <http://facebook.com/bkerensa> <http://twitter.com/bkerensa> > <https://plus.google.com/u/0/115750270177636397262> > <http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/bkerensa/> > <http://flickr.com/bkerensa> > <http://benjaminkerensa.com/> <http://wiki.ubuntu.com/bkerensa> > <http://www.last.fm/user/bkerensa> > > *This message may contain information which is privileged or confidential. > If you are not the named addressee of this message please destroy it > without reading, using, copying or disclosing its contents to any other > person.* > * > * > > --e89a8f234cc38c7df504c6b10d5c > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Mark And= > rews <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"; target=3D"_blan= > k">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"= > style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > > <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> > In message <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= > ccnc.com">[email protected]</a>>, Curti= > s Villamizar writes:<br> > ><br> > > In message <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>50181A1C.= > [email protected]</a>><br> > > Brian E Carpenter writes:<br> > ><br> > > > On 31/07/2012 17:59, Michael Richardson wrote:<br> > > > >>>>>> "Brian" =3D=3D Brian E Carpent= > er <Brian> writes:<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 >> I'm also surprised that we think we hav= > e to cope with flash renumbering<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 >> as a regular event, rather than a service-i= > nterrupting, ISP truck roll<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 >> catastrophy.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> But every time you reboot your antiquated = > v4-only CPE<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> and/or the antiquated<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> v4-only PCs behind it, the PCs all get new= > IP addresses,<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> which may or<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> may not be the same as the previous time. = > There's nothing<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> new in flash<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> renumbering for homenets. Not handling thi= > s would be a step<br> > > > > =A0 =A0 Brian> backwards.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > Well...<br> > > > ><br> > > > > 1) sure, but the *customer* does this, not the ISP.<br> > > > > 2) the clients do have DHCP leases, and if they ask to renew= > their<br> > > > > =A0 =A0previous IP, it usually gets honored.<br> > > ><br> > > > It doesn't matter whether it's the user or the ISP that t= > riggers a<br> > > > change, does it?<br> > > ><br> > > > The point is, users don't care about this, except if they rea= > ch their<br> > > > shiny new wireless printer via its IP static address. There are<b= > r> > > > definitely parts of draft-ietf-6renum-static-problem that apply h= > ere.<br> > > ><br> > > > =A0 =A0Brian<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Brian,<br> > ><br> > > Enterprise renumbering and homenet renumbering are generally quite<br> > > different. =A0Most homehets have short uptimes. =A0Most enterprises ha= > ve<br> > > very long uptimes. =A0(insert favorite Microsoft reliability joke here= > ).<br> > <br> > </div></div>Define short? =A0There are plenty of homes with equipment that = > isn't<br> > powered down every day and that has been up for months.<br> > <br> > I don't know about other but I maintain ssh connections for weeks<br> > from home to the main office at work.<br> > <div class=3D"im"><br> > > If a renumbering is done right, there is an time when both the old and= > <br> > > new numbers are in use. =A0As in "ifconfig <intf> inet6 new= > addr<br> > > ... alias" in the *ix world. =A0During that transition time any u= > se of<br> > > DHCP will hand out the new address. =A0Then comes a time when the leas= > es<br> > > refuse to be renewed. =A0Then the old addresses go away. =A0This can b= > e<br> > > day, weeks, or longer depending on the size of the transition. =A0Duri= > ng<br> > > that time a lot of "please reboot at least once ..." message= > s get<br> > > sent.<br> > <br> > </div>What's the dhcp stuff in the home? =A0RA's work fine here. = > =A0What is<br> > needed is a way to signal in the DNS to only use a deprecated address<br> > as a last resort measure. =A0Named to address and address to name<br> > mappings need to exist until after the address has ceased being<br> > used.<br> > <div class=3D"im"><br> > > Today there is no DHCP help in avoiding the "please reboot" = > messages.<br> > > It should be possible for a DHCP client (ISC guys, are you out there?)= > <br> > > to do the following if a lease can't be renew and a new address is= > <br> > > provided:<br> > ><br> > > =A0 1. =A0Add the new address using an "ifconfig <intf> ...= > alias"<br> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 equivalent.<br> > ><br> > > =A0 2. =A0Check (using netstat -an equivalent) for use of the old addr= > ess.<br> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 Don't delete the old address if a socket still exists.= > <br> > ><br> > > =A0 3. =A0Periodically repeat step 2 until there is no connection usin= > g<br> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 the old address.<br> > ><br> > > =A0 4. =A0Delete the old address using the equivalent of "ifconfi= > g <intf><br> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 ... -alias".<br> > <br> > </div>Actually you should be asking the OS vendors / distro maintainers<br> > to do this and send fixes to ISC. =A0This is all done in shell scripts<br> > that are highly customised to the client platform. =A0There isn't one<b= > r> > linux script that works for all linux distros.<br></blockquote><div><br></d= > iv><div>Unfortunately this is true and this hopefully in the future will be= > more standardized.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > > > <br> > This also doesn't work for many udp based services.<br> > <div class=3D"im"><br> > > This would work for all client side connects that either were done<br> > > before the end of the transition period. =A0For home nets this covers<= > br> > > 99.something percent of the sites with no user intervention or reboot.= > <br> > ><br> > > This requires no protocol change, just better coding in the DHCP<br> > > client software.<br> > ><br> > > What this does not cover is a service that is listenning on a well<br> > > known port. =A0This is rare among home nets (except for homes of reade= > rs<br> > > of IETF lists) but very common among enterprises.<br> > <br> > </div>At the moment. =A0There is no good reason to not be listening on<br> > standard ports if you want to provide your own servers within the<br> > home. =A0DNS will almost certainly be done if only to as hidden<br> > masters. =A0Just publish your current addresses in the DNS and they<br> > can be reached. =A0Cable and DSL are always on services. =A0Homes are<br> > no longer dialup.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree with the a= > ssertion that "Homes" are no longer on dial-up since a good porti= > on of Rural America still does not have Broadband which means millions are = > still on Dial-Up and I hear parts of Europe still use Dial-Up.=A0</div> > > <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= > x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> > > Many points made about license servers, etc in<br> > > draft-ietf-6renum-static-problem don't apply to home nets.<br> > ><br> > > Renumbering an enterprise is doable. =A0Renumbering my home net has be= > en<br> > > quite easy. =A0I've done it a few times already and I'm sure w= > ill have<br> > > to again. =A0The procedure suggested above is just done manually.<br> > ><br> > > One hint is that on BSD and Linux at least a "netstat -an" s= > hould<br> > > reveal any listens on old addresses. =A0An automated scan on an<br> > > enterprise network can identify servers and services needing a<br> > > reconfig and a service restart without any system reboot. =A0[ Microso= > ft<br> > > systems may need to reboot or power down and remove the CMOS battery<b= > r> > > from the motherboard or maybe buy new hardware. =A0:-) ]<br> > ><br> > > > ><br> > > > > In IPv6 space, the host part will generally stay the same (m= > odulo<br> > > > > privacy extensions, which are default on for some clients). = > =A0We've said<br> > > > > that the ULA ought to stay the same, so in fact, I agree, th= > e internal<br> > > > > addresses actually all stay the same.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > I'm still surprised that an ISP will need to flash renum= > ber faster than<br> > > > > it can just expire leases. =A0If it's just repartitionin= > g of network to<br> > > > > deal with growth, that ought to be predictable and prefix li= > fetimes can<br> > > > > be reduced in advance.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > If it's actually some equipment failing, resulting in se= > rvice<br> > > > > interruptions, and then restoration by rewiring the network.= > .. then I<br> > > > > understand.<br> > > _______________________________________________<br> > > homenet mailing list<br> > > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br> > > <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet"; target=3D"_b= > lank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet</a><br> > </div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--<br> > Mark Andrews, ISC<br> > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia<br> > PHONE: <a href=3D"tel:%2B61%202%209871%204742" value=3D"+61298714742">+61 2= > 9871 4742</a> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 INTERNET: <a href=3D"mailto:= > [email protected]">[email protected]</a><br> > </font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">_____________________= > __________________________<br> > homenet mailing list<br> > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br> > <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet"; target=3D"_blank"= > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet</a><br> > </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= > <img src=3D"http://graph.facebook.com/bkerensa/picture"; style=3D"float:left= > "><div style=3D"margin-left:80px"><div style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-famil= > y:helvetica;font-size:14px"> > > Benjamin Kerensa</div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"'comic sans = > ms', sans-serif"><i>Team Lead, </i>Ubuntu Oregon</font></div><div><font= > face=3D"'comic sans ms', sans-serif"><a href=3D"http://ubuntu-oreg= > on.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ubuntu-oregon.org</a></font></div> > > <div>Phone:=A0<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;text-al= > ign:left;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">503-894-6005 x</span><span styl= > e=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11px;text-align:left;= > background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">701</span></div> > > <div style=3D"margin-top:5px"><a href=3D"http://facebook.com/bkerensa"; targ= > et=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3722777/icon/facebook_16.= > png"></a>=A0<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bkerensa"; target=3D"_blank"><img = > src=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3722777/icon/twitter_16.png";></a>=A0<a href= > =3D"https://plus.google.com/u/0/115750270177636397262"; target=3D"_blank"><i= > mg src=3D"https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4BbshQz4tLk/Tpky13k6lJI/AAAAAA= > AAB9g/wvrS4GrSnoc/s16/google_plus_16.png"></a>=A0<a href=3D"http://www.stum= > bleupon.com/stumbler/bkerensa/" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://dl.dro= > pbox.com/u/3722777/icon/stumbleupon_16.png"></a>=A0=A0<a href=3D"http://fli= > ckr.com/bkerensa" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/372= > 2777/icon/flickr_16.png"></a>=A0<a href=3D"http://benjaminkerensa.com/"; tar= > get=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3722777/icon/rss_16.png"= > ></a>=A0<a href=3D"http://wiki.ubuntu.com/bkerensa"; target=3D"_blank"><img = > src=3D"https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0XzSMMdPaGo/Tpky1wQBZ7I/AAAAAAAAB= > 9g/_O-7qTELLxw/s16/cof_orange_hex1.png"></a>=A0<a href=3D"http://www.last.f= > m/user/bkerensa" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3722= > 777/icon/ilike_16.png"></a></div> > > </div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51)= > ;font-family:verdana,arial,'times new roman',sans,serif;font-size:1= > 0px"><i>This message may contain information which is privileged or confide= > ntial.<br>If you are not the named addressee of this message please destroy= > it without reading, using, copying or disclosing its contents to any other= > person.</i></span></div> > > <div><span style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:verdana,arial,'time= > s new roman',sans,serif;font-size:10px"><i><br></i></span></div><br> > > --e89a8f234cc38c7df504c6b10d5c-- _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
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