Another thing I've noticed is how many people use the exact same fingerings 
 on most major excerpts instead of just keeping it simple. My practice is 
that I  like to keep the horn as short as needed so my fingers move less - or 
so I keep  the partial changes minimized. With practice, it's easy to start 
using open for  some 12 fingerings or 2 for 23 fingerings and still play in 
tune. Who says you  always have to play an A flat 2 and 3? Play what makes 
more sense. With a little  thought, you can end up playing the opening of 
Tchaik 5 on the same partial (0 2  12 0... 2...), Mozart 2 and 4 Bb scale runs 
mostly 1 and 0, etc. 
 
Or better yet, you can start noticing that sequential runs like in Strauss  
2 or Gliere are just the same runs on different horns. 
 
Our partials are so close together that it makes little sense to not see  
what other options are there. We can also make just about anything reasonably 
in  tune with our right hand - in fact, a while back that's what we used to 
 do...
 
That reminds me - I used to know a Clarinet teacher who would always say  
"But the Clarinet does that so easily!". The horn can do a few things easily, 
as  well. 
 
But I can be nothing but a rambling fool sometimes, so what do I  know!
 
-William
 
 
In a message dated 3/14/2011 9:50:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[email protected] writes:

Why not  ? Were a comfortable solution for the Bb-players, but not
for the  orchestra. The problem is, that it "horns" too much in many
(Bb) horn  players brain ......  hoho.

#########################################################
Am  14.03.2011 um 14:37 schrieb [email protected]:

> Fingerings could be  worse - and there are always alternatives and things 
 
> you can do  to alleviate the problem (including practice). But those that 
>  don't  wish to play the piece in E - do they ask the entire orchestra to 
 
> transpose  so they don't have to deal with E parts in Brahms  4?
> 
> -William
> 
> 
> In a message dated  3/14/2011 9:32:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> [email protected]  writes:
> 
> Birdalone produced a facsimile of the old print. I  own the old  print. 
By 
> the way,
> I provided them with the  third part of the Dauprat Horn  methode, which 
> they  produced
> as a big folio format volume with all 3 parts,  a  wonderful new edition, 
> including the
> English  translation.
> 
> yes,  William, the Krufft Sonata sounds  better in E, but the notoric  
> B-flat-players
> fear to  break their fingers when playing in E. Hahaha ! If  one has 
studied  
> violin,
> this is no problem. If one places the fingers  on  the keys like wurstel, 
> the problems
> are perfect as  they are when throwing  the fingers up or spreading them 
in 
>  the  air.
> 
>  ###################################################################
>  Am  14.03.2011 um 14:00 schrieb [email protected]:
> 
>>  Birdalone in the US  (I think) published an E version, but the piano 
part  
> 
>> did not  have the Horn accompaniment. I prefer it  in E. To me it just 
> sounds   
>> better. Maybe I  have synthesesia, but certain keys have different  
> 'flavors'  
>> for  me. 
>> 
>> -William
>>  
>> 
>> In a message dated 3/14/2011 8:38:34 A.M. Eastern  Daylight  Time,  
>> [email protected] writes:
>>  
>> Yes, it  is.  I have rewritten it to my iMAC & have  two versions now 
> ready, 
>> in  F or  in E-flat.  
>> Could also make it in E, the original tonality,  but this  is  published 
> by 
>> Billaudot in
>> Paris, I  guess. I  have the two versions ready  now.
>> 
>>  ####################################################################
>>  Am  14.03.2011 um 13:25 schrieb [email protected]:
>>  
>>> This reminds me of  the Krufft Sonata. In some ways the  piano part is  
>> just  
>>> as   difficult as the Beethoven. At  least, as I've been told by 
>  pianists. 
>>> 
>>> -William
>>>  
>>> 
>>> In a message dated  3/14/2011   6:43:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>>>  [email protected]  writes:
>>> 
>>>  Thanks,   interesting reading on this cursed  day.  (If  you are 
outside  
>> the  
>>>  US,
>>> it's the first  work day  of Day Light Savings  Time.  So instead of  
>> getting  
>>>  up
>>> at 5 AM, it's 4 AM masquerading as 5 AM by act   of   Congress.)  
>>> 
>>>  -----Original  Message-----
>>> From:   [email protected]  [mailto:[email protected]] On  
 
>> Behalf
>>> Of  Gary Greene
>>> Sent:  Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:07   PM
>>> To:   Horn-List
>>> Subject: [Hornlist]  Accompanied   Sonatas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 13   March  2011,  [email protected] wrote regarding the  
>> Beethoven
>>> Sonata "I  had  always  assumed that this work  was for solo horn with 
>  piano
>>> accompaniment. I  was listening  to it  yesterday and recalled what 
Hans  
>> has
>>>  said  about the  Mozart work for string and horn, the horn was   part 
of  
> the
>>> ensemble.   Is that the  case the Beethoven  that  it is a work as much 
>  for
>>> piano as it is  for  horn?"
>>>  
>>> The Beethoven sonata, along with his sonatas  for  cello/piano   and
>>> violin/piano are part of the  last  gasp of a tradition sometimes  
called 
> 
>>  the
>>> "accompanied keyboard sonata."  In the middle  of  the 18th  century,  
>> keyboard
>>>  sonatas were often given an   "obligato" instrument which   
accompanied 
> the
>>> keyboard.   That  is,  these were, as Hans points out by  given us the 
>>  original
>>> title of the Beethoven horn sonata, keyboard   sonatas  accompanied by  
>> another
>>>  instrument and  not sonatas for a solo instrument   accompanied  by 
the 
>>> keyboard
>>> (which is how we  conceptualize  them   today).  These were different  
> from a
>>> parallel  tradition  that  involved  a solo instrument accompanied by  
>>  keyboard,
>>> in which latter case the  keyboard part  was  often  simply a 
> thoroughbass 
>>  line
>>> that the  keyboardist was  expected to   realize.  Two different views 
of 
> a
>>> sonata  involving   keyboard and solo instrument  existing side by side 
 
> in 
>> the
>>> 18th     century.
>>> 
>>> Having said that, let me add  the  expected  musicological  waffling!   
:-)
>>> 
>>> 1.  That a work  might be  entitled something  like  "sonata for piano 
> with  
>>> horn
>>> accompaniment" does not  mean that  the  piano part could be  played 
> minus 
>>  the
>>> horn as a solo sonata.  The horn  part  is   obbligato (obligatory).
>>> 2.   "Accompaniment" did not  then  carry  the negative weight of  
being a 
>>> lesser
>>> or merely  supporting  role.  The  term would  have suggested a
>>>  partnership--chamber music.
>>> 3.   Performers today  playing  such sonatas therefore should  not 
>  relegate
>>> their  keyboard  players to the  background  reflexively; it's a joint 
>>  effort.
>>> So,    [email protected], the answer  to your question is "yes."
>>> 4.   But in some cases,  the musical content DOES indicate  a   
>  subordinate
>>> relationship of one performer in favor  of  another,  so...it's  not a 
> joint
>>>  effort.
>>> 
>>> So be aware of  these traditions  but also look at  the  music to see 
if 
> the
>>>  composer is communicating a partnership or a  lead  actor with  a  
>> supporting
>>> player...and be  aware  that the supporting player is   not necessarily 
 
>  the
>>> keyboard.
>>> 
>>> One other  lesson   here:  all of  this points up the need to know  
what 
> the
>>> composer wrote.  We usually  think  of this in terms of pitches  and  
>>  rhythms,
>>> but what a composer calls a   piece is very  often a clue  to his 
intent. 
> 
>> An
>>>  18th-century sinfonie  concertante and a  concerto for  multiple  
>> instruments
>>> might strike us  today  as  seeming  like pretty much the same thing, 
but  
> a
>>> composer then was   likely  thinking  of two different kinds of things 
> when 
>> he
>>>  labeled  the pieces as two  different genres.   Same way  when Wagner 
has 
> 
>> an
>>> oveture for  Rienzi  but  a prelude for Lohengrin--both are  
instrumental  
>>> pieces
>>> that open operas, but  the  terms  overture and  prelude signal  
different
>>>  conceptualizations.
>>> 
>>> Hope these comments  are   helpful.
>>> 
>>> Gary Greene,  Ph.D.
>>> 
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>  t
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