Both works were "Morceaux de Concours" jury pieces. The "Villanelle" was used in 1906, 1913 & 1927. The "Morceau de Concert" was used in 1908, 1914 & 1935. It is my understanding that the teaching of hand horn technique as a separate discipline stopped around 1903, so it would stand to reason that a "Morceaux de Concours" for valveless horns would stop as well. This does not mean that teaching of the hand technique had stopped it just means that testing on valveless horns themselves had stopped. I'm thinking that both the "Villanelle" and the "Morceau de Concert" were in point of fact played on valved horns. As regards the general statement involving valve clusters being inserted during the 19 measures before the notate "with valves" that is indeed possible; just from what I understand, but it is not possible to remove the valves to play the "without valves" notated at the 6/8. It is likely that the piece was played on a "valved horn", using hand technique for the two sections marked "without valves". Remember students would still be judged on this technique. I think it is perfectly clear that the "Morceau de Concert" is a "modern" piece meant to be played entirely "with valves" and the only confusion lies with the "sons bouches" marking after the adagio. Saint-Saens did intend the performer to use the French style of "echo horn". That might have been his little nod to the hand technique still being taught, but largely falling out of favor.
As for the marking three measures before the "Legerement retenu" in the "Villanelle", the one that's causing all the confusion....well, in the Durand edition the marking is: "Sons Bouches" and then "(en echo)". According to Francis Orval, Dukas' intention _was_ what we have been calling echo-stopping (hand cover bell opening, finger 1/2 step up). However he himself and evidently Baumann (at least on my recording) play this "stopped"; as in slam the hand closed, go for the nasal and finger 1/2 step down. Orval, at least, explains that using echo horn here can't be distinguished and in most cases not be heard over the piano and possibly not over a large orchestra. As an aside I notice that Baumann plays the "sons bouches" in the "Morceau de Concert" also fully stopped. John S. mention in a recent email that: "as a point of pride, I've always performed the echo horn section with the echo horn technique, even when I've played the piece with orchestra" and I say that if the orchestra is small then yes, use the "echo horn" even though Baumann, Orval and others might not. But if you are playing the "Villanelle" with a piano accompaniment then go for the "stopped" stylistically it works with this "modern" section and it will be heard. In Sorcerer's Apprentice the marking is "(Sons d'echo)" and further explained by the instructions (prenez le doigte un demi-tone au dessus) which means "finger a 1/2 tone up". Some confusion about this passage could be because in a the 1958 "Orchestral Passages for the French Horn from the modern French Repertoire" Compiled and Edited by Phil Farkas and published by Durand, I believe Mr. Farkas miss translates the instructions as "1/2 tone _down_ rather than _up_. Every one in the US knew that 1/2 down was stopped and maybe this lead to other mistranslations of anything marked "echo". This "echo" direction seems to be a French stylistic technique not well known in the US in the early days (like that French Overture style, it isn't written as a double dot, but you all know to play it that way, now don't you?). Dukas knew what he wanted, and asked for it. However as is noticed by various performers the "echo stop" isn't acoustically perfect and performers play what they think works best. Personally I like the "echo" for the "Morceau de Concert" and "stopped" for the "Villanelle".
Leigh
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