Dear folks,
I do not know what others think about the discussion – but for me I
would be grateful if we could stop it. Me personally I can't stand it
any longer. So please, have mercy.
Best regards,
Ulrich
Von: Kazimierz Verkmastare <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Antworten an: <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Datum: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:25:51 -0500
An: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Betreff: Re: [HG-new] Re: Affordable Hurdy Gurdy Construction
Alden, I hope you don't mind me using you for an example.
Steve, will you agree with this statement - "If what you want is an
Olympic Chinook, then you shouldn't expect, unless you are Cali and
Alden, to be able to build one for less than they do. They have
streamlined production and amortized costs, and probably can't lower
costs (materials + labor + tools) further."
Now if you think you can create significant savings, you have to start
with a belief that the margin in HG building even for a big name is
large, and I can tell you it is not. Sure, you will save the cost of
keeping a storefront open, the electricity, the advertising, and such.
But if you are working in your own home, you are paying for the space
you are occupying anyway. Electricity, rent or mortgage, insurance,
taxes. But the margin for a gurdy is not 50%, probably not 25% or 30%.
So say you want a Chinook, if you are as skilled and knowledgable as the
Hackmans, you can build yourself one for probably $1700 or $1800, real
cost. (Don't remove labor cost from the equation - your time is worth
it). If you aren't as skilled, you will spend twice or more in labor,
and likely more in parts than they do (because they source materials as
a business and have had years to find the most cost-effective
suppliers). Likely the cost of all materials that go into a chinook will
be about $900 (this is prepared parts, not raw materials. You can skew
your numbers by taking everything back to the most basic state - brass
and steel and delrin chunks not turned into bearings and supports and
shafts, and the like, but that is again foolish, I will find a way to
get the basic materials cost of a Weishcelbaumer down to $100 in raw,
raw materials, but then you need the tools and the time to turn the
materials into usable gurdy parts, and you don't do that with a handful
of garage tools and beginner level skill).
When a person goes into production, they source materials and resources
at costs most of us can't match. So we will pay more for our toy in
materials than they will. And because they are experienced, they have
the minimum labor time possible - you will not match that first time
out. And unless your time is worth nothing, you have to include what
your time is worth in what you will spend. So go out and spend the
thousands of hours getting the experience. And make sure not to charge
those hours to the account.
So when Augusto remarked that you have to be doing it for the fun of it,
that is the only way to remove labor costs. If you are building just to
save money, you can, but time is more valuable.
And no, it doesn't have to be exotic woods. But if what you want is what
you have heard, the Weischelbaumer or the old Pajot or the Eaton, then
you get that by using the materials they used the way they used them.
But lets start cutting money corners and using locally sourced wood. Do
you know enough about how to choose some spruce boards from the
lumberyard to resaw a soundboard out of? Or will you just use whatever
and accept the results. If you know enough to really do a fine job
digging a good soundboard out of a hunk of wood, then you are already
out of thos conversation - you have skills already that set you up for
success.
Tools? You don't need tools. A pocketknife, a piece of broken window
glass, a hacksaw blade nailed to a bent willow twig, a carpenter's
pencil and a leather punch, that's all you need, right? No. You need
tools to give you precision cuts, precision circles, precision press
fits. And you don't have to buy new and expensive, you can haunt the
garage and estate sales, Craigslist, Ebay and the like, and outfit your
shop with a reasonable collection of tools for a moderate sum. But here
again you are trading time in setting up and repairing and refreshing
these tools for money, and often, unless you are a professional tool
refab technician, you end up spending total more than a new tool would
cost, or using a tool that gives marginal results (and a gurdy isn't
happy with marginal anything).
So I am saying that if you start from scratch, there is no way that the
total cost will be less than that of the professional. If you don't
count the time and ancillary cost you can fool yourself into thinking
that you have found a really good deal. But the cost is inversely
proportional to your skill and setup status. Those who have to come here
and tell us they are new to building, they are depressed at the cost of
professional instruments and they want to build a good one for
themselves cheap - "How do I do that?" - are not often going to succeed
with those parameters. They might succeed in getting a cheap instrument
that barely plays first time out, or a good instrument that ended up
costing them far beyond their expectations first time out, or they might
get hooked and make a great instrument their 4th or 5th project. But a
player who wants a good instrument but can't afford one and has little
woodworking skills does not stand a great chance of success in building
a great gurdy fast and with only a couple of hundred bucks to throw at
the project. And those are the folks we address here.
If you are a more advanced craftsman than that, you didn't come here
asking us how to do it, you just started and did it, and often showed
off your results afterwards to us. Kinda like, a, er, builder? And if
you are a builder, you will succeed. But you didn't ask, now, did you?
Because you didn't need to - you already knew how to succeed.
Chris
So this discussion seems to have boiled down to two camps, those
who say it's possible to make a good instrument for a low cost by
spending enough time on the project, and those who say it's
impossible to make any instrument without spending more money than
buying a professionally made one.
So those of you who say it'll cost you more to build one than buy
one, where are your numbers? What exactly is it that is going to
cost more money? I'm seriously interested in specifically what you
are thinking the money will go towards. Do you truly believe you
can't build a good sounding instrument without spending thousands
of dollars on exotic hard woods (and therefore a beginner will ruin
more expensive wood than a new instrument will cost.) Or do you
believe that only a $600 block plane will make the proper top for a
good sounding instrument?
Lets have some specifics, not just a generalized "it'll cost more"
statement.
-Steve
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Kazimierz Verkmastare
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote>
[snip]. . .
>
>
> It is a project done for enjoyment, and because I am wasting
> resources as I am building knowledge, it is NOT going to be
> significantly more economical than if I had commissioned it. ...
> that it will end up expensive (the cost is truly inversely
> proportional to your skill and resources),
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found
at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts
from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
Version: 2012.0.1834 / Virus Database: 2092/4575 - Release Date: 10/26/11
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "hurdygurdy" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected]
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy
The rules of posting, courtesy, and other list information may be found
at http://hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/index.htm. To reduce spam, posts
from new subscribers are held pending approval by the webmaster.
