Hi Jeff,

Apologies, on travel mode - so some latency involved.

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Jeffrey Haas <[email protected]> wrote:

> I can definitely see such a case, although the more likely paradigm is
> injecting a large number of RIB entries that may have some BGP properties,
> such as communities or inputs to various BGP-like policy mechanisms.
>

It will be useful to come up with some hand-wavy numbers; at minimal
for implementations to check if they are within expected ranges.

> I have created stubs in the wiki for such comparisons.  Would you mind
> starting the work for FORCES?
>
> http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/i2rs/trac/wiki
>
> You will require a datatracker login.  If you run into issues with editing,
> please unicast me.  This is the first time I'll have done more than editing
> it myself.
>
> If someone is willing to start stubbing in similar items for Netconf/Yang,
> that would be helpful.
>

I will update the ForCES bits at the next opportunity i get. Useful again to
have a matrix of I2RS requirements vs what a model/protocol offers.
While the presentations at the meeting attempted to follow that, it was
not "standard" requirements.

>> On compute:
>> I would expect json to perform better than XML when sending to a browser.
>
> While I think that detail is true, I suspect a browser is not the first
> order consumer of the information.
>
> My general experience with such things is that JSON does fine when you want
> to pass around JavaScript native data, but that you lose some of the
> semantic layering in turning things into JavaScript.  My personal preference
> would be that if we provide JSON layers that they effectively be at the far
> end of the pipe (UI facing) rather than the native object in-protocol.
>
> Obviously such details are discussion points and the above is simply my
> opinion and experience.
>

it does make sense; note what i said earlier are arguements the
pro-json camp uses against xml. Mostly they deal with a browser as
an endpoint.
Having said that there will always be an impedence mismatch of some
form between a representation and the native format; i just claim
it is less so with binary than it is with any form of ascii.

>
> While certainly not a constraint on the working group, I tend to remember
> that we want I2RS to be as pervasive as possible.  This means that anything
> we can make work well on older platforms means it's more likely to be
> supported across a wide range of devices.  This has impact, for example, on
> crypto load.
>

Nod.

> [Several other good points that should be in the wiki entry elided.]
>

> I think I made this observation at the last IETF session: Even for simple
> compression, XML tends to compress *very* nicely with small dictionaries.
> Since HTTP compression is well deployed, I suspect this isn't quite as big a
> deal as it could be.  Of course, that presumes we're layering on top of
> something HTTP-like.
>

Yes, http compression is pretty ubiquitous - so something like restconf
could take advantage of that.

> It's pretty common to either tap before or after the transport APIs for
> debugging.  I think the distintion is that in something text-like you can
> tap and do thinks potentially simpler than if you have to look at binary
> PDUs.  That requires tapping one level back before the binary marshalling
> layer.  Obviously that is doable as well, but simply moves the point of
> complexity one layer up/down.
>

So I am sensing development debugging then?
The arguement i have heard is that operators debug
by capturing on the wire packets and that ascii was easier to follow.

> To offer a somewhat BGP network operations example, those who use the MRT
> file format (RFC 6396) typically have programs that convert from/to that
> format in human-readable form.  Some users may use binary API to interact
> with the files but the majority of operators I've interacted with that use
> it tend to simply transform it to ASCII and Do Something Clever using their
> favorite scripting language.
>

Ok, understood.

> I've left a stub in the wiki for helping to derive or map requirements.

I will be picking requirements as i find them (architecture doc etc) and
filling up the ForCES responses.

cheers,
jamal

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