The harm from persisting the data is in terms of robustness, not in
terms of interoperability. With multiple interacting clients, and
allowance for lowered error checking, things can go wrong.
The fallback in the case of I2RS is that reboot will drop all the state,
so no persistent harm can be caused.
Yours,
Joel
On 3/31/16 5:17 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 1:16 PM, Steve Braaten (sbraaten)
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Ephemeral = “short-lived” or “changes frequently”____
__ __
There is nothing to stop an implementation from storing the latest
“ephemeral” state in a “persistent” way such that it returns to that
state (the last known state) if it restarts for any reason (planned
or un-planned).____
__ __
My humble opinion.
There is little (or no) difference between a NETCONF server that
boots and gets its startup config from a configuration server,
and an I2RS agent that boots and gets its ephemeral state from an I2RS
client.
In NETCONF, NV-storage is mostly an implementation detail.
In I2RS, the architecture says its data MUST NOT persist across a reboot.
(No explanation why interoperability is harmed if an agent persisted its
I2RS data).
____
__ __
Steve____
__
Andy
__
__ __
*From:*i2rs [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
*Sent:* Thursday, March 31, 2016 1:09 PM
*To:* Dean Bogdanovic <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; Susan Hares <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:* Joel Halpern Direct <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>;
BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Gunter
Van De Velde <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:* Re: [i2rs] [OPS-DIR] Ephemeral - Should we use another
word - (3/24 to 4/3) Call for opinion____
__ __
Is “ephemeral” same as “volatile” (whose opposite state is
”non-volatile”)? ____
__ __
Is “non- ephemeral” same as “persistent” or “ non-volatile”? ____
Linda____
__ __
*From:*OPS-DIR [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Dean
Bogdanovic
*Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2016 2:39 PM
*To:* Susan Hares
*Cc:* Joel Halpern Direct; [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; Gunter Van De Velde;
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [OPS-DIR] [i2rs] Ephemeral - Should we use another
word - (3/24 to 4/3) Call for opinion____
__ __
Sue,____
__ __
IMO, ephemeral has two meaning in i2rs architecture____
__ __
1. it doesn’t survive reboot____
2. you can’t roll back to a previous ephemeral state____
__ __
Dean____
__ __
On Mar 25, 2016, at 10:01 AM, Susan Hares <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:____
__ __
Deborah:____
____
Section 2 is exactly the place I would put the definition of
ephemeral.____
____
Sue____
____
*From:*BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:*Friday, March 25, 2016 9:50 AM
*To:*Susan Hares; 'Fred Baker (fred)'; 'Gunter Van De Velde'
*Cc:*[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>; 'Joel Halpern Direct'
*Subject:*RE: [i2rs] [OPS-DIR] Ephemeral - Should we use another
word - (3/24 to 4/3) Call for opinion____
____
Hi all,____
____
As Alia is a co-author, I was assigned as the responsible AD for
this document. The document is not with the RFC Editor – it’s
been approved by the IESG with a revised ID needed to address
comments raised by the IESG. And so the current discussion.____
____
I had also raised the concern on needing more clarity on the
definition of ephemeral during my AD review. The authors added
some information. That clearly was not enough. As the term is
used multiple times in the document and is the basis for another
draft on requirements (draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state) which
refers extensively to the architecture document, I agree the
authors need to add more definition. Fred has a good suggestion
– the term should be visible in a glossary section early in the
document. It’s not currently included in Section 2’s Terminology
– Sue, how about adding it to that section?____
____
I think the authors know what is needed and thank everyone for
the discussion and their time reviewing.____
____
Thanks,____
Deborah____
____
____
____
*From:*i2rs [mailto:[email protected]]*On Behalf Of*Susan Hares
*Sent:*Friday, March 25, 2016 9:18 AM
*To:*'Fred Baker (fred)' <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; 'Gunter Van De Velde'
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Cc:*[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>;[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>; 'Joel Halpern Direct'
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject:*Re: [i2rs] [OPS-DIR] Ephemeral - Should we use another
word - (3/24 to 4/3) Call for opinion____
____
Fred:____
____
Thank you for the review, and your comments here. I wished I’d
asked about the word ephemeral earlier.____
____
Sue____
____
*From:*Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:*Thursday, March 24, 2016 2:59 PM
*To:*Gunter Van De Velde
*Cc:*Susan Hares;[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>;[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>; Joel Halpern Direct
*Subject:*Re: [OPS-DIR] Ephemeral - Should we use another word -
(3/24 to 4/3) Call for opinion____
____
My comment was a review comment, that the word was being used in
a way that wasn't consistent with its dictionary definition
(something with a short lifetime, quite irrespective of
birth/death processes) or common usage (at least in my context).
At this point, the draft has been sent to the RFC Editor, so to
my mind this discussion is mostly moot. If in your other drafts
you are pointing people to a glossary in the architecture
document (which I imagine you already are) and the architecture
document defines the term as you are using it, you have probably
done enough.____
____
On Mar 24, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Gunter Van De Velde
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:____
____
I am ok nowadays with using the terminology “Ephemeral”,
although for a non-natve speaker it is non-trivial exotic
word, particular if the intended usage doesn’t 100% reflect
the Webster dictionary intended meaning.____
____
It is only about a year ago i started reading up on i2rs and
discovered this particular terminology, and at the time a
google search on this terminology was not very conclusive
and resulted to some confusion. ____
I understand very well the confusion at play here from
non-native english speaker perspective.____
____
Adding text to explain the context in which the term
Ephemeral is useful/advised. fwiw now that i am used to
seeing ‘Ephemeral' as non-permanent config across reboot,
i’m adapted its intended purpose… ____
____
Is the goal to explain the intended meaning in each
draft/rfc mentioning it?____
____
Be well,____
G/____
____
On 24 Mar 2016, at 18:02, Susan Hares <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:____
____
Hi all:____
____
<wg chair hat on>____
The draft-ietf-i2rs-architecture document has been
approved as an RFC. In the review, the OPS-DIR review
indicated that “ephemeral” meant more than “does not
survive a reboot”. They have asked the I2RS working
group if replacing “ephemeral” with non-persistent
(across power on/off or reboot cycles) would be a better
choice. ____
____
What do you think – leave at it at “ephemeral” or change
to “non-persistent (across power on/off or reboot
cycles) ? We will have a 1 week call on____
____
This would mean every place that “ephemeral” is listed,
the authors would replace with “non-persistent”. In the
first instance, we will indicate “non-persistent (across
power on/off or reboot cycles).____
____
<wg chair hat off> ____
____
As the author, I think we are better to define ephemeral
at the beginning as “non-persistent (across power on
/off or reboot). Changing the definition at this point,
I suspect will simply confuse people.____
____
Sue Hares____
____
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