On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Kathy Pusztavari <[email protected]> wrote: > I'll have to admit I don't have much right to request, complain, or even > discuss. If I don't get off my butt and program something myself then I'm > part of the problem. > > But I'll tell you, it is difficult to start in this programming environment > where the learning curve is extremely steep (coming from Oracle and PL/SQL > stored procedures). I'm still trying to figure out WHERE to start playing > with Python let alone how.
Kathy, Developer is currently a huge hole for Sugar Labs. So, if you are interested in contributing that would be a great place to start. david > -Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Walter Bender > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 6:26 AM > To: Bill Kerr > Cc: iaep; Sugar-dev Devel > Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] versus, not > > One of the real pleasures of this adventure we are on is that there has been > thoughtful criticism of ideas. I cannot get away with vague or sloppy > thinking. > > On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:37 AM, Bill Kerr <[email protected]> wrote: >> I'm not sure what is meant by a "big tent" >> >> Why do some people want a big tent for learning theory but not a big >> tent which accepts both FOSS and proprietary software? Phrasing it >> that way is intended to encourage people to think about what sort of >> thing is learning and hopefully will not be interpreted as just being >> provocative for its own sake. > > FOSS is a theory of learning. We don't need to reach consensus about either > learning theory or FOSS, but to be members of this community, we must agree > that we can progress from critique to making positive changes. > >> you can have a big tent where people don't discuss learning theory >> because it's too hard to reach agreement >> >> you can have a big tent where people passionately argue about learning >> theory but actually listen to what each is saying and argue rationally >> >> when I look at minsky's theory of mind I see that he supports multiple >> models of thinking but also argues against models of thinking that he >> thinks are incorrect or which emphasise only one way of doing things, >> eg. although he helped create connectionism he now thinks it has too >> much influence > > As Martin points out, Sugar Labs is building tools. But we are not agnostic > about how they are used. We are deliberately building affordances into our > tools to encourage and promote learning activities that are "C" in their > nature, because we believe that that is the principle means by which > learners will reach a level of fluency as described by Alan. But the tools > can be used in support of other learning theories and, to rephrase Minsky, > "if you don't learn something more than one way, you don't learn it." > >> that suggests another version of a big tent which I favour - cherry >> picking the best parts out of different learning theories / activities >> based on criteria (not stated here) that are substantial > > I wear an engineer's hat: "What is the best solution I can build today?" not > a scientist's hat: "What is the best possible solution?" > Ergo, +1 for cherry picking. > >> >> I don't believe that thinking people are agnostic about how people >> learn >> >> it seems to me that alan kay has presented a possibly strategic view >> of progress on these questions (that learning about bricks will not >> automatically lead to building arches, that we need more than just >> focusing on building blocks) - but that for various reasons we are not >> in a position to implement the learning materials based on that view >> in practice in the activities >> >> for me to sit in the big tent holding a strategic view feels different >> to "too hard basket", agnosticism or a tower of babble - teaching with >> an underlying strategic view is very different to just going along >> with the tide > > The analogy to "big tent" perhaps needs more of an explanation for those not > living day-to-day in earshot of the US political dialog. > Republican President Ronald Reagan referred to his party as a big tent in > the days of his popular majority. The current party is being accused of (or > admired for) being more fundamentalist in its ideology; this "either your > are with us or against us" approach has arguably resulted in a greatly > contracted constituency: there are more people who identify themselves as > Independents than as Republicans. As a result, it is being asserted both > from within and without that the Republicans have excluded themselves from > the debate. > > We must engage teachers and learners even if we do not have consensus on all > aspects of learning theories, FOSS, or Sugar. Without the engagement, we > don't grow. Even more important, without the engagement, we don't learn. > That doesn't mean we don't have opinions or direction. > >> >> that would mean work to understand and implement that strategic view >> but also accept that we are not there yet (it will take some time) and >> so it is perfectably understandable and desirable that people will use >> and develop whatever is at hand or which they think important to >> develop - no one can stop that anyway accept by successful arguing >> someone out of a POV > > We have a long ways to go and we need to keep debating as we go. But also we > need to continue "doing". And always be asking "Are there other ways to > approach this?" and "How might we make this better?" > >> Does the "big tent" phrase add clarity to this conversation? >> > > Perhaps not. But the discussion adds clarity to the overall mission of Sugar > Labs. > > -walter > > -- > Walter Bender > Sugar Labs > http://www.sugarlabs.org > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > [email protected] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > [email protected] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) [email protected] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
