On Wed, June 15, 2011 7:45 pm, Steve Thomas wrote: > 1. I believe Carlos raises valid points
Definitely. > 2. We need specifics so we can prioritize and address them, I asked Carlos to check over our existing documentation and tell us, and in particular me, what is lacking. I await his answer, and invite anybody else to do the same. * http://booki.flossmanuals.net/ XO and Sugar manuals * http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable Known problems, with suggestions * http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities#Native_Sugar_Activities Specifics on core Sugar activities > So: > 1. Let's stop talking in generalities and about volunteer vs > corporate, we are what we are, so let's make the best of it > 2. We should work with Carlos (who I find generally very helpful and > supportive and I firmly believe has a heart to help and that is > why he made > the criticisms) to get a list of specific issues, so we can identify > and > prioritize solutions. +1 > Stephen > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Chris Leonard > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Kenneth Wyrick <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Chris, >> > >> > Since this seems to be something you have sincere passion about, would >> you >> > be willing to simply list/summarize specific points that you see that >> > Carlos made so we can talk about them point by point to hopefully >> arrive >> > at a more succinct overall intention of his communication? >> >> >> Kenneth, >> >> I do have a passion for Sugar / OLPC and perhaps that is why I >> identify with the passion that I see in Carlos' message. I would >> reprise my comment that the discussion is best carried out *with* >> Carlos and in Spanish on the lists he posted his message, but I will >> give it a shot. However, I will say that I cannot really speak to >> Carlos concerns, that conversation should happen with Carlos. I >> intersperse my comments with his paragraphs below (prepending mine >> with "cjl"). >> >> Quoting from the English translation at >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yBr2G7FF5Jr46ixt_THm1xQh08cyNJXx8KUy-WDZ1Xs >> >> First let's acknowledge this as a potentially misleading starting >> point as tone can easily be mangled by Google Translate. >> >> "I work since 1983, using computers as an important tool to earn a >> living. While working, I had to learn DOS, Windows and Macintosh. I >> also learned Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys after retiring from >> work." >> >> cjl - It is clear to me from this that Carlos has a lifetime of >> expectations formed by the systems that he grew up using. It is a >> psychological phenomena that "violation of expectations" leads to >> strong reactions. I've worked as programmer on and off since the late >> '70's. Yes, I've booted computers from cassette tape, been paid to >> program on IBM punch cards, have used Wang 8 inch floppies and know >> what a read-write ring looks like and does. I know where he is coming >> from. >> >> "I just cannot learn Sugar. I ask for help when I find problems I >> cannot resolve but I don´t seem to get answers that make any sense." >> >> cjl - In this I read frustration at the comnunications channels, >> I can sympathize with this sentiment and imagine it must be amplified >> for a native Spanish speaker. In my opinion this is the crux of the >> message that deserves further exploration of the exact issues and >> engagement with a positive tone to seek improvements and where >> possible remedies for the problems that plague Carlos and other users. >> This is the feedback we've been asking for, it is up to us to take >> him seriously (as he should be) and draw him out on the details. >> Sorry, it isn't filed in a bug-tracker with a patch, it will require a >> conversation. >> >> "From what I hear at meetings, both in Uruguay and overseas, and from >> what I read in lists, I can assure I am not the only one having this >> problem." >> >> cjl - No question he is right about this. In fact the lack of >> feedback from deployments is often bemoaned on the IAEP list. It is >> just a little amusing and slightly sad that when such feedback comes >> (however poorly framed), the first response is to reject it, >> >> "I beg you excuse my ignorance. If some ignorant like me doesn´t >> speak clearly, we will continue to waste our time for ever as well as >> waste the precious time of children and adolescents and trying to >> convince teachers they don´t know how to teach." >> >> "If you are ashamed of confessing you don´t know, continuing in >> ignorance is more of a shame." >> >> cjl - Here Carlos admits his own shortcomings (we all have them) >> and asks for enlightnement. This to me is a sign of intelligence, >> admitting one's own limitations. >> >> "I said I learned to work with quite diverse computers and operating >> systems and I just cannot get to learn Sugar. Let´s try to find then, >> what does Sugar have different from DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Open >> Office, Google Docs and Etoys." >> >> cjl - see earlier comment about "violation of expectations". >> >> "A characteristic common to all the systems I was able to learn and >> use with positive results is they work well. They work well for >> common people like myself and for most people who need to know the >> basicas to be able to work, adapting those programs to the specific >> problems of our jobs or further study. That basic training, enables >> us to face the challenges the real world presents to all who work >> and/or study." >> >> cjl - Here, I suspect that Carlos is confusing the Sugar Learning >> environment with the workplace tools he is familiar with. This is >> understandable, this confusion with the goals of Sugar exists widely >> and can be hard to overcome. Apparently OLPC has lost deployment >> opportunities because an XO cannot be used to provide vocational >> training in Microsoft Office. Int4erestingly, even the smallest steps >> to allow Windows to run on an XO by tweaking the open firmware >> produced vehement reactions within the community. >> >> cjl - To paraphrase the Haggadah (the Jewish service for the >> Passover meal) it is incumbent on us to ask and answer the question: >> "Why is this OS different from all other OSes?" >> >> "In a few words, my opinion is Sugar does not work. Those who think >> otherwise, should just follow the messages in the mail lists, >> preferrably those in Spanish, the language of Uruguay and several >> other countries, or become a volunteer and live with the problems." >> >> cjl - A not unjustified call for listening closely to the >> feedback that is given (mostly in Spanish) and to live with real-world >> deployment issues. Again I see this as a clarion call for more >> engagement. >> >> "Why doesn´t it work?" >> >> "I will offer my best ignorant´s opinion. Anyone with an answer >> closer to the truth, please explain it to us so we continue living in >> armony and progressing for everybody´s benefit." >> >> "I will explain, using an imaginary example, my opinion on why Sugar >> doesn´t even get close to the reliability and usefullness level of the >> other systems we mentioned." >> >> cjl - I have to give him some points on the reliability concern, >> I would have to ask the question of "usefulness" by asking "usefulness >> for what purpose", back to the learning tool versus workplace tool >> issue. >> >> "Let´s think of Apple, currently the most successful company in the >> business, at world level. It acquired its good reputation offering >> devices that work well since we open the box and programs that most of >> us can learn how to use with good results within a short time." >> >> cjl - Regardless of your feelings about Apple, this is not an >> inaccurate description of some elements that have contributed to their >> success. Let's please accept that responding to this by getting into >> discussions about Apple would be a distraction, so let's avoid doing >> that. >> >> "Let´s imagine now that Apple directors decide to save money by firing >> all the great programmers they employ, dedicated to write their >> operating systems. Let´s imagine they decide that a group of >> volunteers, worldwide, with a horizontal organization without chiefs, >> is the latest model in modern business management. What would >> happen? How much longer would Apple survive? Days? Hours? >> >> I am neither complaining, nor criticizing the past or the present." >> >> cjl - Well, this is a bit of rehashing OLPC's decision-making >> around supporting Sugar that lead to the spin out of Sugar Labs back >> in May 2008. I really, really don't want to re-litigate that, it is >> water long under the bridge. Those of us who were around at that time >> remember it as a time of high passions and recriminations, some were >> even moved to express themselves in outrageous forms >> (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings) just to >> exorcise those demons and move forward with the important work at >> hand. >> >> "Thanks to Sugar and to many other organizations and persons, Plan >> Ceibal started, it accomplished tremendous progress and it is where >> it is today. Let´s congratulate all those who helped bring it to this >> point, from those who made the big decisions, to OLPC and each and >> all teachers, students, relatives and volunteers." >> >> cjl - An acknowledgement that OLPC and Sugar have changed the >> nature of the discourse around ICT and learning. >> >> "Wouldn´t this be the time to recognize Sugar is what is currently >> preventing us to move ahead, and to dedicate all our tremendous >> collective intelligence and energy to continue moving ahead? Anyone >> may trip on a roadblock. We have to get up and continue on our way. >> We cannot let a program that has problems stop everything." >> >> cjl - Sounds like a call to "throw the baby out with the >> bathwater", I can't say I agree with this conclusion, but Carlos is >> certainly not the first to make this point. This is an opportunity to >> engage Carlos in a discussion about the core principles behind Sugar >> and to examine our own efforts to see how we may be falling short of >> achieving those principles. >> >> "I am happy to see Plan Ceibal is not sleeping and every day is >> introducing or considering very interesting ideas. I see Portal >> Ceibal shows information on Khan Academy and Sugata Mitra, among >> other education ideas that are calling the attention of many people >> around the world today." >> >> cjl - Here Carlos is suggesting that Sugar and an XO laptop alone >> are not the solution to all problems, a conclusion I heartily agree >> with. It fails to acknowledge what Sugar and XOs make possible, but I >> will not quibble there, I will join him in celebrating the ingenuity >> of local deployments and even children in appropriating the tools they >> have adopted and reworking them to meet their own needs and desires. >> At this point I am tempted to shout "Hallelujah" or less aptly >> "Mission Accomplished". The appropriation of the tools and technology >> by local communities is the end-game we all seek (I think). >> >> cjl - What this leaves out is the sincere desire of Sugar Labs to >> gather that creative energy back from the deployments and share it >> with other deployments around the world. Let's be honest in admitting >> we just don't do this well enough (yet). I myself would like to see >> OLE Nepal's materials translated into English and hosted on Pootle for >> anyone to localize into their language of choice (just as an example). >> This returns us to the need for deeper and more meaningful engagement >> to harvest both the good and the bad from deployments. >> >> cjl - Kenneth, that is how I read Carlos's message. It may not >> be what he really meant to say and he may not like how I characterize >> some of his points, but this is just my opinion, which you *did* ask >> for, You just didn't realize that I would actually give it to you :-) >> >> cjl >> _______________________________________________ >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > [email protected] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) [email protected] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
