My $0.02 regarding IDLE (and Tk): I am a professional programmer who has been programming primarily in Python (Thank you GVR et. al.!) for nearly a decade. IDLE has been and remains the only editor I want to use.
It has its warts and idiosyncrasies, there are things I would love to see (IPython integration is awesome!) But every other editor I've ever tried (and I've tried pretty much all of them) has left me cold. IDLE is not an embarrassment, it is not substandard, and it is certainly not deprecated. It doesn't need to be grown into "a full IDE". Thank you. (Also, TCL/Tk is awesome.) ~Simon On 2/7/14, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote: > Just putting a couple of thoughts / questions out to the community here : > > The impression I get about IDLE is that it's a bit of an > embarrassment. (Possibly because of tk). Everyone accepts it's > substandard. But no-one seems to want it to grow into something else > (eg. a full IDE, something more like PythonCard / VisualBasic / > Processing). Maybe IDLE is deprecated and the hope is it will die > quietly. But if that IS the plan, then it would be nice to have it > stated somewhere so that we can stop thinking of it as the "official" > default IDE for Python and periodically wondering whether we should > try to resuscitate it. And maybe focus our contributions on a project > like VPython etc. instead. > > Bluntly, is IDLE meant to be getting good or to be going away? I don't > know. And I can't find out by reading python.org or this mailing list. > > It feels like this ambiguity isn't only bad for IDLE, but might be > lying behind the issues Jessica refers to. As well as a python > programmer, I'm a digital artist so I've been doing a fair amount with > Processing in the last few years. It's incredible to me that a > language as officiously unpleasant and hostile to beginners as Java > has managed to become the preferred choice for non-technical artists > who want to do cool stuff with graphics, sound and physical computing. > > How did that happen? It's a niche that would have been perfect for > Python. And should have been well within its grasp. As far as I can > tell, Processing's success is a combination of beginner-oriented IDE > and comprehensive library in a single convenient download. Those are > two virtues that Python has been able to boast for 15 years. And yet > ... somehow ... the package didn't quite add up. IDLE wasn't quite > straight-forward enough, and Python's included batteries didn't > include OpenGL, which has become the standard for all the cool > graphics. > > When I've suggested on IDLE-dev that IDLE could evolve to be more like > Processing, that idea has been generally rejected on the grounds that > IDLE is meant to be a "basic editor". But what's a basic editor? One > which never evolves, innovates or adds new functionality? No one is > going to be motivated to work on IDLE if it's not allowed to grow into > anything new. > > At the same time, Jessica asks for Python to be a good beginner's > development environment, straight out of the box. If IDLE isn't the > solution to that requirement then what is? > > That seems the challenge here : either IDLE gets good for beginners > who want to do cool stuff. Which means maybe taking inspiration from > Processing. Or HyperCard. Or really exotic things like LightTable > (http://www.chris-granger.com/lighttable/) Or perhaps the python > community and especially the python.org site, should just drop it and > start promoting (and offering easy beginner downloads for) > comprehensive packages like VPython, IPython, Enthought etc. > > Phil > > > > On 7 February 2014 05:57, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether....@gmail.com> wrote: >> IDLE!!!!! >> >> We are starting up a partnership with a community center here in >> Oakland, CA, starting kids up with programmming. We're starting with >> Logo (yay, Logo!) and transitioning to Python with the turtle module. >> We've been using IDLE on Linux and also a Raspberry Pi. So far, so >> good! >> >> I for one am ecstatic about IDLE. It has a warm place in my heart. I >> should set aside a few hours a week to help out with it. >> >> Anyhow great video, thanks for the link! >> >> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Guido van Rossum <gu...@python.org> >> wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood >>> <bruce_sherw...@ncsu.edu> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica >>>> didn't >>>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being >>>> able >>>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser >>>> is of >>>> rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind. >>>> There >>>> exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to >>>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be >>>> the >>>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but >>>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this, >>>> Guido? >>> >>> >>> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their >>> heads >>> against this particular wall. >>> >>>> >>>> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been >>>> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off >>>> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to >>>> use >>>> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in >>>> the >>>> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that >>>> it's >>>> now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks. >>> >>> >>> That's awesome! >>> >>>> >>>> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the >>>> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where >>>> you >>>> can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript >>>> or >>>> CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program >>>> >>>> box() >>>> >>>> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in >>>> the >>>> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so >>>> that >>>> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and >>>> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are >>>> lots >>>> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL >>>> programs >>>> with other tools is vastly more difficult. >>>> >>>> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in >>>> an >>>> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation >>>> rather >>>> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example >>>> that >>>> will run in WebGL-enabled browsers: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript >>>> >>>> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org. >>>> >>>> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice >>>> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax >>>> and >>>> use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for novices. >>>> I >>>> would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the major >>>> language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs. >>> >>> >>> Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been >>> even >>> more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for >>> the >>> latter we have Kivy. >>> >>> -- >>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IDLE-dev mailing list >>> IDLE-dev@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, >> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. >> - Abraham Maslow >> _______________________________________________ >> IDLE-dev mailing list >> IDLE-dev@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > -- http://twitter.com/SimonForman My blog: http://firequery.blogspot.com/ Also my blog: http://calroc.blogspot.com/ "The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity." --H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World" _______________________________________________ IDLE-dev mailing list IDLE-dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
