I am not interested in this discussion. You all can do what you want. On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 11:30 PM, Terry Reedy <tjre...@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 8/5/2015 5:55 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 4:43 AM, Terry Reedy <tjre...@udel.edu >> <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: >> >> As a user of Idle for several years, and not a beginner, I disagree >> with 'only'. That aside, I consider it unnecessary and diversionary >> from the numerous known issues that will benefit *everyone*. >> > > The core of this comment is "unnecessary and diversionary ...". > > As for 'unnecessary', what does adding 'only' add to the discussion? Does > that mean that we should reject features that also benefit non-beginners? > If not, what does it mean? What extra design guidance does it add? > > As for 'divisionary', see, besides the above, my questions that follow the > 'PyCharm' quote. > > Please note that I volunteer my time to improve Idle *because* it is > primarily used by students and secondarily, perhaps, by others who are not > professional programmers. > > I was worried that you'd respond like this. *No* change to IDLE will >> benefit *everyone*, >> > > Please give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I am saying > something sensible. By 'everyone', I mean "everyone who uses Idle" and in > relation to a particular issue, 'everyone who use the feature in question' > and in relation of OS-specific issues, 'everyone using that OS'. With > those meanings, my statement is reasonably true. > > > for the simple reason that few people outside the > > (non-higher) educational field use it. > > Bruce already covered colleges. > > There are also post-beginners, but not professional programmers, like my > daughter, who are so far happy with Idle and do not yet need the advanced > features of other Python shells. > > And there are Windows users. Windows Command Prompt is awful. Interactive > Python in Command Prompt suffers its sins. I believe most Windows users who > try Idle Shell find it to be a better experience. One of the other core > devs once (blushingly) admitted on pydev to using Shell on Windows for this > reason. > > > IDLE should not try to compete with things like PyCharm ... > > What does this mean in terms of Idle design decisions? Can you give me > examples of what you think should not be added? > > You and Kurt each have twice given general advice that Idle should be kept > 'simple' and not have 'advanced' features added. But I have trouble > turning that general advice into concrete decision making. Are there any > enhancement requests on the tracker you would reject as too complex or > advanced? (To make checking easy, I can send or post a complete, > categorized list.) > > A couple of the features at the end of Al's list strike me as the sort of > things you are saying not to do in the advice above. Do you agree? > > In particular, consider post-installation switchable multiple language > support. That would, in general, be of most benefit to the youngest > beginners. It is also a rare and rather advanced feature, and complex not > only in terms of the programming, but in the need for coordination with an > internationalization group separate from Idle maintainers themselves. > Should we avoid competing with more advanced programs and leave this out? > > > , nor with the Emacs/Vim world (and I consider most every text editor > > professional coders like to use these days on Linux/Mac/Windows to be > in > that world, from Sublime Text to Atom). > > Notepad++ had been recommend as a multiple (50) programming language > editor for Windows on python-list. I have also seen it mentioned on > Stackoverflow. > > > IDLE's one redeeming feature is that it's bundled with Python, > > As installed, Idle > 1. Colorizes Python code > 2. Converts \t to ' ' > 3. Saves in utf-8 (3.x) > 4. Checks syntax before running and marks the location of error in the > editor > 5. Runs the file in -i mode > 6. Displays tracebacks and print output in a window with normal cut and > paste > 7. and can jump to the error line of any file in tracebacks > 8. ... > > As installed, Notepad++ does 1. With some searching through the extensive > settings menus, one of which is not obvious, it can do 2, 3, and 5. By > running in Idle or another external, installed program instead of command > prompt, it can get 6. As far as I know, it can never do 4, or 7 in the > sense of jumping back to Notepad++. With respect to this 7 points, Idle is > the better choice for developing Idle programs. > > I presume that some of the other programs you mention match Idle in > features 4 and 7, which I find *very* useful. But I think you have an > overly narrow view of the virtues of the program you help create ;-). > > And to repeat, Idle makes the interactive mode of Python, as installed, a > joy rather than barely tolerable. If it were removed, another replacement > for command prompt should be found. > > > -- > Terry Jan Reedy > > > _______________________________________________ > IDLE-dev mailing list > IDLE-dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev > -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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