Dave Crocker wrote in
 <fdb458e5-410d-4294-b9cc-2d44fba79...@dcrocker.net>:
 ...
 |SMTP has a posting, followed by one or more 'direct' deliveries (or 
 |failures, of course.)  Relaying through MTAs is part of this. That is, 
 |really, all an SMTP session does.
 |
 |And it does not include going through translation gateways, mailing 
 |lists, or the like.
 |
 |An 'intermediary' might have the task of taking a delivered message and 
 |then sending it farther on.  It does this by _re-posting_ the message -- 
 |possibly in highly modified form -- which then eventually gets a fresh 
 |delivery.  This is exactly what happens for mailing lists.
 |
 |My own view is that it is also is what happens for aliasing, but there's 
 |been disagreement with some other email folk.
 |
 |Note that a message sent to a mailing list is addressed to a mailing 
 |list.  It is not addressed to the 'final' recipients. That additional 
 |addressing is done by the mailing list, not the original author. This is 
 |a rather stark demonstration that the intermediary has taken delivery 
 |and then re-posted the message.

Still (in case your words imply something else) i find it very
much beneficial if it is not only OpenPGP / S/MIME which can be
used to verify the message that is then distributed by the
mailing-list, as a new message.
If i as a ML reader get "this" through the today practically
omnipresent DKIM automatically, where "this" is the
cryptographical security that the message *really* came from the
domain it is supposed to come from.  Then this is good, despite
what RFC 5321bis says on end-to-end security.
And i do not even need to trust the ML system, i can verify the
original message.

 |Not surprisingly, I refer to RFC 5598 about such things, since the IETF 
 |email community spent 5 years developing it.  Again, for some reason, 
 |some folk prefer to ignore it.
 ...

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
|
|And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s).
|
|The banded bear
|without a care,
|Banged on himself for e'er and e'er
|
|Farewell, dear collar bear

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