Dave, Thanks for your clarification, now I understand this has converged to a more contract language issue. At this stage, I may not be able to help on the detail languages since I guess the hoster or IAOC already have been deeply involved in it.
Anyhow, I apprecaite that you make everybody more clear on it, thanks. Lastly, I think that everybody have to self-censor about what he does. Thanks for the discussion -Hui 2009/10/2 Dave CROCKER <d...@dcrocker.net>: > Hui, > > Hui Deng wrote: >> >> 1) I personally have attended several standardization meetings such as >> 3GPP and 3GPP2 in China, > > Many of us have attended meetings in China and we have found them productive > and enjoyable. However all of those other groups conduct their business in > a way that is significantly different from the unruly style of the IETF. > >> 3) IETF is doing technical stuff, I don't see why we need to be involved >> in political stuff. > > This has been explained repeatedly. First, there is legitimate technical > work in the IETF that touches topics which are explicitly prohibited by the > contract language. Second, the style of IETF discussions often includes > individual comments which are likely to violate the contract. This unruly > speech is a consequence of a core principle in the open style of IETF work. > > >> 4) China is one of the major member of United Nations, anyhow, come here >> and see > > Hui, this really has little to do with "China". > > Rather, the problem is with contract language that I believe we would never > accept for any other venue. > > The only reason we have a debate about this because > we are so /eager/ to have an IETF meeting in China! > > Some folk say that we should ignore the language in the draft contract, > because it will not be enforced, except under extreme circumstances. First, > it is never appropriate for people signing a contract to assume that it > won't be enforced, especially when they cannot really know the exact > conditions that will cause it to be enforced. (The term "fiduciary > responsibility" covers this.) Second, these assurances are coming from > people who cannot speak for the hotel or the government. Hence, they are > merely guessing. > > Let's be specific: > >> "Should the contents of the Group's activities, visual or audio >> presentations at the conference,or printed materials used at the >> conference (which are within the control of the Client) contain > > Note how extensive this is. We are required to control material and speech > by everyone, yet the IETF has never really controlled the material or speech > of /anyone/. > > >> any defamation against the Government of the People's Republic > > Defamation is really a rather vague word, especially among most of us do not > know how it is actually used in China. (Let's be fair. I suspect most of > us do not know how it is used as a legal term in the US, or any other > country...) > So we need to be afraid of violating this, without really knowing what is > permitted and what is prohibited. > > >> of China, or show any disrespect to the Chinese culture, or > > Disrespect is an even more vague term and it is coupled with "culture" which > could mean anything having to do with the country's government, history or > population, and could even cover reference to Chinese people anywhere in the > world. > > Worse, comments made in the IETF are often disrespectful. We wish they > weren't, but again, this is a consequence of how the IETF conducts its > business. So the IETF really is being required to make guarantees that > change its basic style of operation. > > >> violates any laws of the People's Republic of China or feature > > Language that says that we won't violate the host country's laws is, of > course, not necessary -- the laws are the laws and anyone violating them has > a problem, no matter whether it is referenced in the contract -- but it > probably doesn't hurt to include it. Or rather, the only reason to include > it is to set the stage for the financial consequences, specified later... > > >> any topics regarding human rights or religion without prior >> approval from the Government of the People's Republic of China, > > As has been noted by several folks, the IETF does work that necessarily > requires discussing topics that are relevant to human rights. And again, we > also have the problem of trying to restrict spontaneous comments that might > violate these conditions; yet we have never done that. > > >> the Hotel reserves the right to terminate the event on the spot >> and/or ask the person(s) who initiates or participates in any or >> all of the above action to leave the hotel premises immediately. > > This gives the Hotel complete freedom to shut the meeting down according to > its own interpretation of conditions that are extremely vague. That's not a > reasonable contract condition for us to agree to. (Here's where "fiduciary > responsibility" becomes the real focus, when making an agreement.) > > >> The Client will support and assist the Hotel with the necessary >> actions to handle such situations. Should there be any financial >> loss incurred to the Hotel or damage caused to the Hotel's >> reputation as a result of any or all of the above acts, the Hotel >> will claim compensation from the Client." > > Again, this appears to make us financial responsible for the hotel's > actions. And the financial exposure is not limited. We cannot reasonably > know how large the financial risk is. > > Some folk keep noting that the agreement is with the host, not the IETF. > Nonetheless, it is the IETF that is expected to honor the conditions of the > agreement. So the IETF must decide whether is /can/ and /should/ agree to > such conditions. > > Would the IETF agree to such contract language were the meeting to be in > Singapore, Amsterdam or Seattle? I believe we wouldn't. > > The problem, here, is with contract language, not a country's culture or > government. > > d/ > > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
