Serge - the reason's Carol's comments can be viewed as more commentary
vs suggestions - well - we're trying to be...well - nice. We haven't
yet asked what the imports groups rules are - you guys have rules for us
- what are your internal rules for dealing with an import/importers?
Our whole issue has never been with the process for importing data.
We're interested in data that is helpful for the map. You guys really
need to make sure that what happened to us during an import doesn't
happen to anyone else. Overall everyone is still over thinking this - Do
you want new (potentially GIS) people importing data and if so do you
want to make it "easier" or "harder" or (my vote) more straightforward
and more well defined. We don't argue the rules - sweet <diety in the
sky> - we live and die by our internal rules. I applaud at making this
less like the wild wild west in import land (and I completely understand
why what happened happened - Paul - you did the right thing) - but
you're going to scare off new people. If that is what you want than just
say it "We make this cryptic and scary because we don't want you doing
an import" .
Just for kicks - I read the automated code of conduct (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct) -
ours wasn't exceptionally automated. It was pretty manual. Is there one
for importing in general?
There are days I get up and go "I wish we had known" and we wouldn't be
having this discussion....BUT - I still think it's a good thing we are
having it.
Randy
-----------------
Randal Hale, GISP
North River Geographic Systems, Inc
http://www.northrivergeographic.com
423.653.3611 [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
twitter:rjhale
http://about.me/rjhale
On 11/03/2013 02:41 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
All,
At the last meeting, we discussed creating a page on the OSM US
website about imports.
If you don't tie this back into the OSM Wiki it's a wasted effort. I'm
not going to two places to learn about imports. The import that Carol
was doing (and I was helping with) was neither Scripted import and
automated. Hence the only rule we broke (rule and not a suggestion) was
contacting the imports list. This needs to be addressed. Change the
banner on pages dealing with scripts/imports. The tools are everywhere -
I can sneak and do imports whenever I want as long as they aren't large
imports. No one will notice. BUT YOU WANT THE USER TO KNOW WHY THIS IS
NOT A GOOD THING.
The message for this page is that we welcome
imports, but that before an import is done, the importer must do a lot
of homework and be prepared for a long process.
Homework being?.....I know what I would do - is that what the import
committee feels like needs to be done. For the ACC import we checked the
data, stripped the attributes, tagged accordingly, uploaded, and fixed
every error directly related to our import (and we still had two goofs
we had to fix). I think we did well....
You guys need a sandbox to test imports. Testing against the "live"
database is not a good thing.
Martijn and I separately decided to take a crack at writing this. Here
is my draft, and feel free to make comments.
Are you interested in making an import in OpenStreetMap?
================================================
OpenStreetMap contains mostly surveyed data but also contains some
data that's been sourced from external sources. Unlike many other GIS
databases, though, imported data cannot simply be dropped alongside
existing OSM data. Instead, an import in OSM must be carefully
cultivated and is generally a long term commitment.
I take issue that OSM data is different than GIS data - except for file
format and tagging there is no difference. If you do your homework you
can "drop it alongside" existing data. To me imports have boiled down to
an "us vs them". All OSM data is is a format/attribution change. In
order to better cultivate you should have a checklist for the importer.
The importer needs to knwo what they are about to do. While I said this
import was hurried - we broke the area down into small defined AOIs to
make sure we didn't screw up too much.
If you're interested in starting an import, you should consider
joining the [OSM US Import
Committee](https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports-us), a
working group of the OpenStreetMap US chapter dedicated to import
issues. This group has a mailing list and an informal meeting once
every two weeks. For a more general discussion about imports, join the
imports mailing list.
Before you consider doing an import, here are some important questions
to ask yourself:
* __How experienced are you with OpenStreetMap?__ We generally don't
recommend people import into OSM unless they have at least a year's
worth of experience editing OSM.
1 year is subjective. Are you going to revert is a person has 9 months?
What evidence is there for 1 year? How do you check to make sure the
person isn't brain dead? I'm not arguing so much as asking. Why a year?
I know people with 5 years I wouldn't want doing an import - I know
people with less than a year I wouldn't think twice about. Do you ever
find an importer that couldn't chew gum and walk at the same time - did
you stop the import?
* __Is this a dataset that belongs in the OSM database?__ There are
many datasets which are interesting or useful, but do not belong in
the OSM main database. Instead, you may want to consider a mixin or
other way of using OSM data alongside your dataset.
List the data. I have sidewalks? Can I import? What data does OSM want
to see imported? List it instead of leaving it a clouded issue. We have
a whole pile of data from ACC. Buildings are the only thing we think has
a place currently. What about the guy wanting to do landcover or
parcels? we even have addresses - but we haven't verified them so we
won't import them. They look good but that's about it.
* __Do you know license for the data you want to import?__ The OSM
project is very strict with its data and licensing requirements, and
any potential imported data needs to adhere to those strict standards.
No one is checking the licensing so I can list whatever I want. I
understand why the licensing is important - but there is no self
check/audit. It's just semantics. Not complaining - just pointing it
out. We will most likely need to come up with one for ACC - ODBL? Do you
have a suggested license? Give a list - let people know some choices.
* __How will you handle data updates?__ As the data from the external
source changes, how will you plan on keeping OSM up to date?
If it's your local area then you will want to keep it updated as a
matter of pride in the work. To me this is just another question sent to
frustrate the new user. You mention a plan - is there a suggested plan
for updating the data? I hope this is where "blood and souls" (I
listened Frederik) comes in. My old neighborhood -
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.0560/-85.3079 .
The only import was hydro (and I did that a while back).
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.0560/-85.3079>
* __How will you handle conflation issues?__ Your data cannot simply
be placed on top of existing data, but instead, will need to be
carefully conflated. Have you considered how that process would take
place?
Define conflation. In our world it's a whole different term. When we
started receiving emails during the import they were filled with OSM
speak. Simple <fill in the blank> language is a good thing. I know it's
part of being in the community but after the hazing is finished you can
say conflation all you want.
* __How much time and energy are you willing to dedicate to this
process?__ Most imports require months, if not longer to complete.
This time includes planning, discussion, revision and the import
processes itself. If you take on an import project, you will be
responsible for overseeing its execution from start to finish.
If it's a community project I hope the community chimes in and helps.
Making it sound like it's you vs the world is once again in place to
frustrate more than help. If my workload changes it may take me a year
or longer. I hope the community of importers would be willing to help.
Lastly, read over the [OpenStreetMap Import
Guidelines](http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines).
These govern the import process in OpenStreetMap, and not following
them can result in your data being reverted, or your account being
locked.
This needs to be at the top. Let people know there are rules and what's
going to happen. Hence the uninformative banner you see at every page
involving an import/script. MAKE IT INFORMATIVE. Let people know crap
will hit the fan if you don't follow the rules.
_______________________________________________
Imports-us mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports-us
_______________________________________________
Imports-us mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports-us
