Correction: My import is not failed.
------------------------------------- Carol Kraemer North River Geographic Systems, Inc http://www.northrivergeographic.com 404.431.0125 [email protected] On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Carol Kraemer < [email protected]> wrote: > I want to address one of your comments separately from the others: > > > * What is the OSM community and who does it really support since it > > does seem to be highly selective in who it gives the import hall > > pass to? > > I think if you really want to be constructive about this in the future, > you need to get over your own failed import. I can sense that you're > still grumbling about the fierce central command which is unfairly > highly selective about who their friends are, and that you're still in > battle mode trying to find fault with, and improve, the system, or > others. Bury that hatchet now or you'll find it extremely hard to > acquire a balanced and sober view. > > I believe I stated at the beginning of my email that I have been following > the most recent import request coming through in the past several weeks. My > opinion is based on what I am observing in those threads. I know it's > easier to say that I am taking this all personally but I assure you that is > not the case. I think I have tried to be very constructive here in many > ways. > > P.S. My import is failed. Part of my data is still there and I am still > determining if the OSM community is the right place for my local community > mapping involvement as well as trying to pay attention and learn from the > mailing lists and watching the guidelines for clearer instructions. I > consider much of what has come from my import experience here to be a > success. If I didn't want to make this a better community, I could walk > away just share a negative experience with everyone. Instead, I'd rather > make an effort to welcome more people to your community and hopefully be > welcomed here as well. > > > ------------------------------------- > Carol Kraemer > North River Geographic Systems, Inc > http://www.northrivergeographic.com > 404.431.0125 [email protected] > > > On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Frederik Ramm <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Carol, >> >> maybe we're suffering from a trans-atlantic word defintion problem >> here. When I say "community" I always, exclusively, mean the OSM >> community - not "the community of people living in one house block or >> one village or city quarter or town" or anything else. >> >> Everyone can of course be (or become) part of the (OSM) community. But >> in terms like "community import" we're never meaning to say "an import >> done by some community of people" but "an import done by the OSM >> community". >> >> Maybe that was clear already, I wasn't sure. >> >> > * How OSM defines a local community? Opinions have been thrown out by >> > individuals but this needs to be defined by the community and >> > clearly stated. >> >> This is very difficult to define and clearly state. I think that it >> might be possible to find a "guideline" but it is likely that in the end >> someone will have to make a call. >> >> > * What does OSM define as a legitimate OSM community member? Opinions >> > have been thrown out by individuals but this needs to be defined by >> > the community and clearly stated. >> >> This is also difficult, although when talking about who should be >> involved in imports we could simply say that you need so and so much >> time with OSM and so and so many 1000 manual edits before you can >> participate in an import, without telling those that don't meet the >> criteria that they are "not legitimate community members". >> >> > * If local community mappers (GIS, OSM, etc...) make a decision to add >> > data to their map >> >> Compare to what I said above - only the local OSM mappers can make a >> decision to add data to OSM. Members of other local communities who are >> not OSM community members might add data to "their" map at liberty, but >> "their" map is not the OSM map. >> >> You don't have a claim to OSM just because you live in a place or do GIS >> in a place - you can only have a claim to OSM if you participate in OSM. >> >> > how much influence does OSM really want to have >> > on what is considered correct use of OSM for that local community >> >> We had that discussion a lot in the past. To a certain degree, I think >> the project should allow local people to shoot themselves in the foot, >> make mistakes, learn from them, etc., however if a local group somewhere >> makes a decision that is considered harmful and where others elsewhere >> have already experienced the negative consequences, I think the locals >> should at least be able to demonstrate why their case is going to be >> different. >> >> I think it also makes a difference just how local the group is and how >> much data we're talking about - remember that we don't yet have local >> databases. If a local group were setting up their own OSM-cloned >> database of course they could do whatever they wanted. In the distant >> future, we might indeed get there - OSM as a cluster of linked local >> databases where local people make their own decisions. >> >> Btw. this also works the other way round - not only "how much can OSM as >> a global project dictate to a national/local OSM community" but also (we >> had that too) "how much can the OSM community in one country dictate to >> regional groups in that country" (e.g. countries with culturally >> disjunct areas where people would like to make their own decisions). >> >> > * What is the OSM community and who does it really support since it >> > does seem to be highly selective in who it gives the import hall >> > pass to? >> >> I think if you really want to be constructive about this in the future, >> you need to get over your own failed import. I can sense that you're >> still grumbling about the fierce central command which is unfairly >> highly selective about who their friends are, and that you're still in >> battle mode trying to find fault with, and improve, the system, or >> others. Bury that hatchet now or you'll find it extremely hard to >> acquire a balanced and sober view. >> >> > if the OSM admins determine >> > that imports should not be done by anyone, then say so. It will save >> > us all a lot of "heartache and rejection." >> >> I think that imports are mostly undesirable but at the same time >> inevitable. Much like a country can't win a "war on drugs", the OSM >> admins could never win a "war on imports" even if they declared it. Just >> as drugs can be good but aren't in the wrong hands, so are imports. What >> we need to do is make it clear to people that a life without imports is >> possible, but if they decide to do imports nonetheless, at least make >> sure they're not ruining it for themselves and everyone around. >> >> > * Providing examples of the kind of data sets that would be considered >> > as valuable additions to the main map and which would not be >> > considered appropriate for the main map. >> >> I think a much bigger and more rewarding issue would be to demonstrate >> clearly to people that data doesn't have to be in OSM in order to be >> used/useful. >> >> What we currently have is someone playing with OSM, finding out how >> great and easy it is to have access to pre-rendered tiles and Overpass >> API database requests and easy planet file downloads and whatnot. Then >> they find that their county lacks building outlines. Then they find the >> building shape file on their county's GIS web site. And the first thing >> they ask is: HOW DO I GET THIS INTO OSM? - When indeed all they want is >> a convenient slippy map that shows OSM data plus the county GIS building >> outlines (or so). >> >> And currently they're right - dumping anything into OSM is often an easy >> way to make it accessible in the form you want to access it. If we >> managed to work on that front - to provide easy tools for people to e.g. >> throw a shape file onto OSM and make both visible together without >> importing - then the whole import question would lose much of its urgency. >> >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> -- >> Frederik Ramm ## eMail [email protected] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" >> > >
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