Mikel, We are having a discussion regarding the import. I have heard from several people off the list that they are intimidated about this process, probably because of mails like yours which use a tone of authority and use intimidation as a means of getting your way (ie you want me to shut up).
Simply put, your mail is actually inappropriate on a number of levels. As for repeating pattern- you seem to have a problem with anything I do. I'm disappointed that you are unable to be participatory in a positive way, but giving people orders with a hint of vague threat is simply not an acceptable way to communicate with people in the project. - Serge On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Mikel Maron <[email protected]> wrote: > Serge > > This isn't passion or gruffness, but simply inappropriate. Stop the > demonizing crusade against MapBox. There's at least three sides to every > story. We've heard this before several times from you before on numerous > threads. Time to move on. > > Sincerely > -Mikel > > * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron > > > On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 9:12 AM, Serge Wroclawski <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > David, > > Thank you for your straightforward answer. Mikel and Alex have pointed > out that you're getting flak for a situation that you are not involved > in. I think that's a fair crititism and so I want to help contexualize > the situation. > > A while ago we had the NYC building and address import proposed. This > was a pretty revolutionary import and in many ways represented some > real steps forward for OSM and imports, which I was very pleased > about. > > Instead of using mechanized tools to import addresses and buildings > (like has been done before), there was a decision to use human beings > augmented with high quality tools. It was a refinement of the work > done in Seattle[1]. The Seattle import took an enormous effort but has > been extremely positive for the community there and for OSM. It's been > a huge success in my view, thanks to the work of the local there. > > The difference between NYC and Seattle's import is that we (NYC folks) > thought that the work would be done by locals. Community organizers > planned import events and tried to get the word out, etc. But what we > soon found was that there were paid digitizers from overseas[1] doing > the work. The problem was that there's an issue of incentive. They're > paid to work, so they worked as fast as possible, not taking the time > that someone here in the city would, or even a normal OSM mapper > would. We're talking tens of thousands of objects an hour. > > Then the mappers would simply not respond to messages. If there was a > problem, it was ignored, and they'd continue. Eventually the DWG had > to get involved because the situation was so bad. It was awful for > everyone involved- absolutely everyone. > > We had to have a number of meetings about it, with local community > members and also Mapbox folks, we had to hammer out agreements- it was > really not the way these things should be. Many of us (myself > included) felt that Mapbox was not being forthcoming about their > plans, it was never an out and out falsehood, it was always "the stuff > between the lines". > > And the effect on NYC has been that the local community has been > pretty deflated. We used to have meetings with people who'd come out > and map, and that's really died down. It's really a shame. > > For the DC import- I personally connected to it because I'm one of the > people that messed up the first import. I'm part of the reason there > are so many bad sidewalks everywhere, and (before I deleted them), I'd > imported all the trash cans. It was a mess. > > I'm not a local anymore (I left DC after living there 16 years > (1996-2012) but I want to see the DC import go well. I think it's > really important, and I want to avoid the pitfalls we've had in the > previous imports. > > I hope that clarifies the situation and I hope you understand that > this context is why so many of us are so impassioned and maybe a bit > bunt to the point of gruffness. > > - Serge > > [1] Please no one complain that there are actually no "seas" between > here and Brazil. > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 8:47 AM, David Jackson (OCTO) > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Serge, >> >> What I meant when I stated '[ There is no money being exchanged for work >> on >> this project.]" is that no money is or will be exchanged specifically for >> this project. Yes, people are paid as part of their normal job, but there >> are no specific contracts for this project. >> >> I changed the Wiki to read "Work will be performed primarily by DC GIS >> employees which includes paid summer interns. No paid contracts >> specifically >> for this import project have been issued or will be issued." >> >> The DC GIS interns are IT savvy and are being trained solidly on the >> import >> procedures. Furthermore, the interns live in the jurisdiction (DC) where >> the data is being imported. This is their hometown. >> >> David >> >> David Jackson | GIS Analyst | Office of the Chief technology Officer >> (W) 202.724.5135 | 200 I ST SE, 5TH FL, Washington, DC >> [email protected] | Blog: dcaddresscoordinates.blogspot.com >> Telework Day: Fri >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Alex Barth <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > From the Mapbox team, I myself and my colleague Aaron have been in >>> > touch >>> > with David Jackson from DC/OCTO who's leading the import to help him >>> > work >>> > through setting up tools, so has Mikel who is not affiliated with >>> > Mapbox. >>> > Brian DeRocher and Steven Johnson (also not affiliated with Mapbox) >>> > have >>> > offered to provide training. >>> >>> I'm glad that you responded to the criticism about not engaging the >>> local community by reaching out to the local community- that's >>> excellent news. >>> >>> > What's exciting about this project is that DC government is engaging >>> > first >>> > hand. Young people will learn about OpenStreetMap hands on, and they'll >>> > even >>> > get some cash for it - and this is all part of working for their city! >>> > That's awesome and I'll continue to support that. Mapbox isn't planning >>> > right now to do any of the upload or map review work. >>> >>> I'm very confused about this. I thought that David said no money would >>> exchange hands. >>> >>> When we say "Is anyone being paid?" we mean "Is anyone being paid?". I >>> feel that there is a great deal of honesty missing here, which also >>> sends me a message of lack of respect. I'm glad that it's being >>> explained now, but I why has getting the answer about money been like >>> pulling teeth? >>> >>> I personally have concerns about these interns because they will be >>> coming new into OSM (ie they are not OSM community members) and they >>> will have the same bad incentives that we've seen in the past with >>> paid mappers. Frederik has suggested some ways of addressing the >>> concerns- I'm interested to see what you and David's responses are to >>> those suggestions. >>> >>> - Serge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Imports mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Imports mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports > > _______________________________________________ Imports mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
