Sir, This plant is known as BIBI KUMRA locallly. I forgot to mention that we also eat its flower (male) fried with gram-flour. After much thought I think it is *C. moschata* Duchesne as you have already identified in your book or in eFI.
Spathulate sepals (however variable it may be), pentagonal peduncle with broad/expanded attachment should precede any other discrepancies in leaf or hair characteristics. Thank you very much for this very educative discussion. Regards, surajit On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > We also used to cultivate the vine in Kashmir. I don't remember the fruit, > but flowers were large and yellow, C. pepo or C. moschata. Our mother used > to cook flowers buds and young shoots as karhi (using curd but withour gram > flour) it used to be very tasty. She would make halwa for us from fruits, > but at that age (8-10 years), pepo or moschata had no meaning for us. > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:45 PM, surajit koley < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Sir, >> >> The more i read the more it gets complicated to conclude. I surely would >> follow the plants in my home. We eat its leaf as SHAG/SHAK (significantly >> rough & bland tasted compared to Indian spinach) and the fruits as >> vegetable. We do not prepare any pumpkin-HALWA and the same can be said >> about my friends/neighbour. >> >> Meanwhile, it has grooved/sulcate peduncle of *pepo* (Hooker & Haines), >> prickly (*pepo*, Hooker), but, 1) leaves are not deeply five-lobed >> (Prain) 2) problem of sepal, 3) doubt over if petiole can be called pungent >> (*pepo*, Prain). >> >> Herbarium in the net is not helpul - >> >> 1. >> >> http://linnean-online.org/view/collection/linnean=5Fherbarium/Cucurbita.html >> 2. http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/SpecimenDetails.aspx?PlantID=428 >> >> Thank you, >> >> Regards, >> >> surajit >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Please follow them till maturity to resolve. Here in Delhi there are two >>> types of fruits sold in the market. Those looking similar to yours sold as >>> petha (most commonly) or kadu or safed kadu (some as Sita phal) and cooked >>> as vegetable. These are globose, dark green with white lines or patches, >>> almost flat or depressed top. The second is sold almost yellow in colour >>> (second photograph in my book), elongated, almost oblong and up to 80 cm >>> long, mostly sold as Sita phal, cooked as vegetable but more commonly as >>> sweet halwa. Inititially I had thought them to be two different species, >>> former as C. pepo and latter as C. moschata, but latter changed my mind >>> after seeing wide range of fruits in the market and images of ayote squash >>> on the net and its description in Vegetable crops by Balakrishnan. >>> As I wrote earlier may be you will be able to give me a clear picture >>> after studying your vines in detail and following up fruits till maturity. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:14 PM, surajit koley < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Sir, >>>> >>>> There are three vines growing in our home. From ground they climb to >>>> the roof of our store room as can be seen in the newly attached first pic. >>>> There. on the roof, they remain prostrate. They are intertwined so closely, >>>> firmly gripping each other with their tendrils, it is hard to separate them >>>> and follow individually. >>>> >>>> Yet, i rechecked thoroughly this afternoon. All bearing - >>>> >>>> - same leaves, no white patch on any, petiole prickly >>>> - mature stem of all very prickly >>>> - leaf upper surface very scabrous, lower surface hairy, but not >>>> scabrous >>>> - two plants bear fruit; fruits are same, peduncle grooved, >>>> somewhat woody (not sure, maybe corky instead) >>>> >>>> As for *sepals* it is the most confusing part. Of all the flowers i >>>> have examined only 3 or 4 have somewhat foliaceous sepals at the tip. But, >>>> this foliaceous part is variable (pic xx399 in this latest record), one >>>> having distinct while another is narrow wing like along the linear sepal. >>>> >>>> Surely *the fruits can be said xerox copies of your photograph in page >>>> 53 of your book. Also the leaves in page 51.* >>>> *Also, it can be said that my plant(s), except for sepal confusion, is >>>> a copy of the illustration in FoC >>>> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=119692&flora_id=2>.* >>>> >>>> On the other hand all the three plants certainly oppose the record of *C. >>>> moschata* by Dr. Haines, "The species is easily recognised by its >>>> general softness,.." >>>> But, then i might be very wrong, perhaps *C. pepo* is much more >>>> harsh-rigid-prickly than i am thinking of. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> surajit >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Surajit ji >>>>> If this particular plant is at a place where you can follow it up, you >>>>> may be able to solve the mystery. Your photograph 312 does not show any >>>>> foliaceous calyx lobes, but 336 shows clearly foliaceous. Are they are >>>>> from >>>>> the same vine?, if not keep track of them. Your image 323 shows the >>>>> swollen >>>>> tip of peduncle slightly separated from fruit base as also shown on page >>>>> 53 >>>>> of my book. This is one aspect you can perhaps sort out before next >>>>> printing of my book. I have depicted both types of fruits in my book. Two >>>>> things that kept me away from Cucucurbita pepo are first leaves not lobed >>>>> (All plants of C. pepo I have seen in California including Zucchini which >>>>> is now grown in India have deeply lobed leaves). Besides Book Vegetable >>>>> Crops by Balakrishnan mentions only chapan kadu as member of C. pepo >>>>> cultivated in India. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps you have a very challenging assignment. >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:56 AM, surajit koley < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good morning Sir >>>>>> >>>>>> Attaching photographs male & female flower, fruit, leaves, sepals, >>>>>> petiole, peduncle/pedicel. Leaf stalk is prickly, petiole sometimes >>>>>> longer >>>>>> than lamina. Petiole odorous but not intense. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> surajit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 10:26 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sir, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am attaching records from Dr. Prain, Dr. Haines, FBI & FI. It is >>>>>>> interesting to not that while Dr. Haines thinks *C. melopepo* L. is >>>>>>> synonymous with *C. pepo* DC, Dr, Prain & Dr. Hooker think >>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The leaves (not photographed yet) of this plant are harsh, and the >>>>>>> entire plant is somewhat prickly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *C. pepo* DC >>>>>>> *C. pepo* Willd. iv. 609 *C. moshcata* Duchesne >>>>>>> *C. melopepo.* Willd. iv. 610. *C. maxima* Duchesne Prain >>>>>>> >>>>>>> rigid, pungent hairs on the beneath of petiole; leaves deeply five >>>>>>> lobed; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> calyx lobes narrow subulate leaf stalk hairy all over, but not >>>>>>> pungent or rigid hair; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> calyx lobes broad spathulate, leafy >>>>>>> leaf stalk hairy all over, but not pungent or rigid hair; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> calyx lobes narrow-subulate Haines leaves harsh, rigid, acute lobed; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> peduncles sulcate; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> corolla narrowed at base, with erect lobes leaves soft, indumentum >>>>>>> fine & soft; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> peduncle pentagonal, >>>>>>> expanded below the fruit; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sepals often foliaceous leaves harsh, rigid, rounded lobed; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> peduncle not sulcate; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> corolla lobes curved outwards FBI prickly rigid hair on the beneath >>>>>>> of the petiole; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> peduncle woody, strongly grooved; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> hairs of the petiole not pungent; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> calyx segments spathulate or foliaceous hairs of the petiole not >>>>>>> pungent; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> peduncle stout corky, striated, not grooved; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> calyx segments lanceolate-linear FI fruit sub-cylindric, both ends >>>>>>> obtuse, suface very even fruit roundish, smooth, torulose >>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is very confusing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Surajit ji >>>>>>>> This fruit had confused me a lot, initially I had also thought it >>>>>>>> to be C. pepo, but after I saw some older fruits, I noticed features >>>>>>>> of C. >>>>>>>> moschata. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 9:33 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This one is growing on the roof of our storeroom. It seems to be >>>>>>>>> the *Cucurbita pepo >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/mQuQIkIuzns>*, >>>>>>>>> but is it *C. pepo* L.? >>>>>>>>> Both in "Bengal Plants" and in Flora of British India it had been >>>>>>>>> cited as *C. pepo* DC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "efloraofindia" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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