Thanks, Chadwell ji.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 21 September 2016 at 23:27
Subject: Re: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251611] SK105SEP18-1016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <>

*Clearly an Epilobium but another difficult genus. There are a number of
similar-looking, small-flowered*
*willowherbs found in Ladakh of which I understand E.royleanum to be the
commonest.  However, things*
*are not simple.  Excuse the lengthy comments which follow.*

The two most distinctive 'Epilobiums' found in Ladakh are now within the
genus *Chamerion* (at one time spelt *Chamaernerion)*:

*Chamerion angustifolium *known in the UK as 'Rosebay Willow Herb' or
'Fireweed' - known in N.America as 'Dwarf Fireweed' or
'River Beauty Willowherb' is gregarious by alpine watercourses.  In 'The
New of the British Isles' Stace keys Chamerion from Epilobium
on the basis of all the leaves being alternate, flowers held horizontally,
slightly zygomorphic, whereas in Epilobium at least the lowest
leaves are opposite, flowers +/- erect when open, actinomorphic.  There are
other differences.

Stace also observes for the genus *Epilobium* (in the UK), "*Plants vary
greatly in stature, leaf-size and degree of branching and*
*of pubescence but the type of hairs and certain aspects of leaf-shape are
relatively constant.  Seed coat ornamentation *
*is highly diagnostic, as is the presence of a terminal appendage, but a
high magnification (x> 20) is required".*

Unless seeds are present (most Epilobiums are photographed when in
flower) this characteristic cannot be used to distinguish
between closely related species and even if one examined the plants with a
good hands lens, the magnification may not be sufficient
to check the detail.   This means in some cases pressed specimens which can
be examined under a higher magnification binocular
microscope may well be required to be certain, identification-wise.

Stace also observes (for UK Epilobiums) that hybrids occur commonly where 2
or more species occur together, especially
in quantity for several years in disturbed ground.....

*So one can see this is rather complicated!  *The images shared do not show
much detail (the flowers are only in bud, not open).
Sometimes insufficient detail is visible from even the best, perfectly in
focus close-ups - which is why some plant taxonomists specialising in
particular genera or families require quality pressed specimen to provide a
reliable identifications.

*Anyhow, what are the possibilities as to the species of Epilobium in
Ladakh?  Stewart ('An Annotated Catalogue of the Vascular Plants of
Pakistan &  Kashmir' 1972) lists 6 Epilobiums from Ladakh, whereas the most
up-to-date checklist for Ladakh by Klimes & Dickore lists 12.... **'Flowers
of the Himalaya' describe 7 (now 5) of c. 23 spp. but probably more are
recognised from the Himalaya nowadays.*

Klimes (a Czech Republic botanist who undertook excellent field work in
Ladakh but sadly went missing and has not been found)
lists 5 species in what he described as 'lower' Ladakh (meaning the places
he explored that were not at high altitude). * Of these,*
*I understand E.royleanum to be the most widespread* with specimens found
in eroded stream banks, emerged bottoms, springs &
irrigation channels.  Stewart recorded it as very common, chiefly in the
temperate zone of N.Pakistan and Kashmir with a 19th
Century record in Nubra.

The images posted do look close to the 2 small photos of *E.royleanum* in
'Himalayan Plants Illustrated' (Yoshida, 2005) but this book
also has photos of *E.tibetanum* - not that I could distinguish between the
two on the basis of the photos.

I do have a copy of the revision of ONAGRACEAE, the family to which
Epilobium belongs, for 'Flora of Pakistan' (which I cannot locate at
present but will check latter).  But not sure if it will help much or is
fully up-to-date.  There is the e-flora for Pakistan but this does not
contain all the detail within the printed versions.  RELYING UPON KEYS ONLY

*This is all I can do for the present, perhaps there is someone with
specialist knowledge of Epilobium who can say with confidence which species
the images are of? **I cannot at this point - sometimes it is just not
possible to tell similar species apart on the basis of*
*photos which do not show sufficient detail - or the genus needs further

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road

*From:* J.M. Garg <>
*To:* efloraofindia <>
*Cc:* Saroj Kasaju <>
*Sent:* Tuesday, 20 September 2016, 1:45
*Subject:* Fwd: [efloraofindia:251611] SK105SEP18-1016:ID

Thanks, Saroj ji
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Saroj Kasaju" <>
Date: 18 Sep 2016 22:20
Subject: [efloraofindia:251611] SK105SEP18-1016:ID
To: "efloraofindia" <>, "J.M. Garg" <>

Dear Members,

Sharing some pictures for ID shot at Nubra Valley on 22 August 2014.

My guess is some Epilobium sp.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju
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