Dear Professor
Thank you for your observations.
As I have said for other genera and shall keep making the point, all one can
ever say is "to the best of our currentknowledge/thinking" and that is liable
to change.
Only by inspecting carefully and at times being encouraged, perhaps even
provoked/challenged, to check more carefullycan our knowledge of genera improve
- which it needs to.
Yes, there will be differences of interpretation amongst botanists and
taxonomist plus as this site says, we are all falliblewith mistakes being made.
Clearly, most photos are not close-up. We are often having to do our best with
one or two general shots showing little morethan the 'habit' of the plant.
As we examine plants more closely we will find some of the descriptions within
what reference books/works we have are imperfect.I regularly comment that
'Flowers of the Himalaya' is not a flora, covers only a fraction of the total
species from the region and hasbrief descriptions which can only summarise the
variation in each species - and this publication is now 40+ years old.
Overall, thework is of a high standard but has its limitations - few members of
this group have ready access to more detailed monographscovering genera in the
Himalaya/India. And not everything that is published is accurate/can be relied
upon.
There is a need for specialists for every genus and family present in the flora
of India. Its flora has not been studied intensively. In the UKthrough our
Botanical Society of Britain & Ireland we have large numbers of amateur
botanists voluntarily undertaking studies and surveysto a professional standard
to supplement the efforts of a limited number holding professional positions.
Even with a flora (a fraction of thesize of the Himalaya's let alone India as a
whole) studied in such depth over a long period there is much still to be
investigated.
Hooker and his numerous collaborators did a remarkable job compiling 'Flora of
British India' with often scant material,which was sometimes of poor quality
with non-existent field notes. Many specimens were collected by
non-field-botanistsand the Indian sub-continent presents challenges
climate-wise as to the thorough collection, pressing, drying and preservationof
mounted specimens in herbaria. Pity conditions are not all as favourable as
the arid Trans-Himalaya.
But his work was merely a preliminary starting point and is out-of-date.
All genera in Indian incl. the Himalaya need further investigation and at
times, revision.
The starting point for this is field-work, with detailed, informed observations
- with, where appropriate, high quality pressed specimens with detailed
accompanying field-notes. Too many reference pressed specimens in herbaria
(the world over) are inadequate - with few, if any field notes such that
herbarium taxonomists have to rely on what they can observe from the dried
specimens. High quality close-up digital images can make a major contribution
here especially if the photographer knows which bit of the plant matter for
each genus. The traditional general images showing the "pretty bits" often
miss the crucial characteristics. Those specialising in genera can advise
others what to pay particular attention to, so the images are of greater use
identification-wise. Keen amateurs who access plants in the wild are an
invaluable resource. Another valuable source of information can be observing
plants in cultivation (provided they are of known provenance and of recent
introduction directly from the wild). Such things will allow those undertaking
taxonomic studies to be able to inspect fresh morphological characteristics
rather than having to rely on dried specimens only.
Lots of images/records are required to understand better variation within
species and between species in each genus. Species that occur over a wide
geographical and altitudinal range particularly need such studies.
We need to encourage more extensive and thorough field-work/observations -
quite a problem (and this applies in the West as well) in these days of
high-tech science with the attractions of laboratory research rather than the
often arduous conditions of going into the field but without this, our
knowledge of India flora incl. rarity or abundance will not attain the
standards it could. Field-work needs to be given the respect it deserves,
even if not especially 'high-tech'! Though the use of digital cameras helps
in this respect.
Perhaps you could post images of close-ups of the floral (and fruiting) parts
of Cautleyas (and other Zingiberaceae) to help clarify issues? Or get some of
your students to?
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: efloraofindia <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]; Narendra Joshi <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, 17 October 2016, 5:54
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya
spicata from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05
Thanks a lot, Sabu ji, for your important views.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mamiyil Sabu
Date: 17 October 2016 at 03:58
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya
spicata from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05
To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]>
Please note, C.spicata has flowers crowded into an erect spike. In 'Flowers of
the Himalaya' they describeC.gracilis as having a lax drooping spike but
certainly early on, it does not droop but the flowers are few and distant.This
is correct.
C.spicata has spikes 13-23cm. C.gracilis 5-10cm (though it can be hard to
judge scale from photos taken from different distances).Correct.
C.spicata has red bracts as long as (thus covering) the calyx. C.gracilis has
green bracts much shorter than calyx.This is highly confusing. In both species
red and green bract forms are available. This is the case with many
Zingiberaceae members.
C.spicata grows in shrubberies and amongst rocks, sometimes epiphytic whereas
C.gracilis is a forest epiphyte, sometimes growing on rocks.The habitat of both
species are more or less same.
C.spicata has narrow-elliptic leaves whereas C.gracilis has linear long-pointed
leaves.Leaves of C. spicata are oblong lanceolate whereas in C. gracilis it is
linear lanceolate.
Both species were recorded by Collet on Jako, Shimla.
Dr. M. Sabu
Professor
Department of Botany
University of Calicut
Kerala, 673 635, India
Phone: 91--4952431545
Mobile: 91- 09447636333
Website: www.gingersofindia.com
http://www. universityofcalicut.info/ index.php?option=com_content&
task=view&id=2175&Itemid=246
Google scholar:https://scholar. google.co.in/citations?user= BkXpK9IAAAAJ&hl=en
On 16 October 2016 at 19:47, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: [email protected] m <[email protected] om>
Date: 16 October 2016 at 19:42
Subject: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya spicata
from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05
To: efloraofindia <[email protected] m>
Mr Garg is correct this is Cautleya spicata.
Please note, C.spicata has flowers crowded into an erect spike. In 'Flowers of
the Himalaya' they describe C.gracilis as having a lax drooping spike but
certainly early on, it does not droop but the flowers are few and distant.
C.spicata has spikes 13-23cm. C.gracilis 5-10cm (though it can be hard to
judge scale from photos taken from different distances).
C.spicata has red bracts as long as (thus covering) the calyx. C.gracilis has
green bracts much shorter than calyx.
C.spicata grows in shrubberies and amongst rocks, sometimes epiphytic whereas
C.gracilis is a forest epiphyte, sometimes growing on rocks.
C.spicata has narrow-elliptic leaves whereas C.gracilis has linear long-pointed
leaves.
Both species were recorded by Collet on Jako, Shimla.
The larger image in Cautleya on the Gingers of India site is of C.spicata.
See; http://www.gingersofindia.com/ genera-and-species/12:gingers/
15:cautleya-royle.html The smaller image named as C.gracilis does match this
species. Note that Noltie in 'Flora of Bhutan' Vol 3 Part 1 (1994) considers
that C.cathcartii to probably be just be a robust form of C.gracilis.
There are correct images showing C.gracilis as an epiphyte in Sikkim &
Darjeeling:http://www.asianflora.com/Zing iberaceae/Cautleya-gracilis.ht m
There are a number of images of herbarium specimens of C.gracilis available on
the Kew Herbarium site such as: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/ge
tImage.do?imageBarcode=K001057 270 which show the distant flowers - though
variation exists. Note that this was originally thought to be a specimen of
C.cathcartii.
The situation is complicated by a number of images on the internet (primarily
of cultivated plants both in India and the West) having been misidentified
-this is common-place. It is worth repeating that my informal investigations
suggest at least 50% of plants in cultivation under Himalayan names are
misidentified. So you cannot always rely upon images on the internet - the same
principle applies (though hopefully much less than 50%) to images of plants
taken in the Himalaya, in books and articles about Himalayan plants are also
misidentified). Even 'Flowers of the Himalaya' has a few misidentifications
amongst its images.... ALWAYS be cautious in accepting the information
provided on the internet and traditionally printed articles and books. The
content of many check-lists and floras covering the Himalaya cannot always be
relied upon. I find many littered with clear-cut errors plus numerous
questionable records. It is of course difficult for those without the
background or experience to be able to question such things. We ALL of us
need to be less trusting of information. As for the content of articles
published in the amazing array of 'international' journals that abound these
days - beware, it is often not peer-reviewed or properly checked (though how
could the content be). Even the information supplied by prestigious
international organisations is not always accurate....
On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:42:47 PM UTC+1, raj wrote:
Dear Members,
Cautleya spicata for validation. Photo taken on the way to Gala approx height
7500 feet, Aug 14, 2016.
--
With Regards,
Narendra Joshi
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For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700
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database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my
Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can
also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
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