Dear Professor Thank you for your observations. As I have said for other genera and shall keep making the point, all one can ever say is "to the best of our currentknowledge/thinking" and that is liable to change. Only by inspecting carefully and at times being encouraged, perhaps even provoked/challenged, to check more carefullycan our knowledge of genera improve - which it needs to. Yes, there will be differences of interpretation amongst botanists and taxonomist plus as this site says, we are all falliblewith mistakes being made. Clearly, most photos are not close-up. We are often having to do our best with one or two general shots showing little morethan the 'habit' of the plant. As we examine plants more closely we will find some of the descriptions within what reference books/works we have are imperfect.I regularly comment that 'Flowers of the Himalaya' is not a flora, covers only a fraction of the total species from the region and hasbrief descriptions which can only summarise the variation in each species - and this publication is now 40+ years old. Overall, thework is of a high standard but has its limitations - few members of this group have ready access to more detailed monographscovering genera in the Himalaya/India. And not everything that is published is accurate/can be relied upon. There is a need for specialists for every genus and family present in the flora of India. Its flora has not been studied intensively. In the UKthrough our Botanical Society of Britain & Ireland we have large numbers of amateur botanists voluntarily undertaking studies and surveysto a professional standard to supplement the efforts of a limited number holding professional positions. Even with a flora (a fraction of thesize of the Himalaya's let alone India as a whole) studied in such depth over a long period there is much still to be investigated. Hooker and his numerous collaborators did a remarkable job compiling 'Flora of British India' with often scant material,which was sometimes of poor quality with non-existent field notes. Many specimens were collected by non-field-botanistsand the Indian sub-continent presents challenges climate-wise as to the thorough collection, pressing, drying and preservationof mounted specimens in herbaria. Pity conditions are not all as favourable as the arid Trans-Himalaya. But his work was merely a preliminary starting point and is out-of-date. All genera in Indian incl. the Himalaya need further investigation and at times, revision. The starting point for this is field-work, with detailed, informed observations - with, where appropriate, high quality pressed specimens with detailed accompanying field-notes. Too many reference pressed specimens in herbaria (the world over) are inadequate - with few, if any field notes such that herbarium taxonomists have to rely on what they can observe from the dried specimens. High quality close-up digital images can make a major contribution here especially if the photographer knows which bit of the plant matter for each genus. The traditional general images showing the "pretty bits" often miss the crucial characteristics. Those specialising in genera can advise others what to pay particular attention to, so the images are of greater use identification-wise. Keen amateurs who access plants in the wild are an invaluable resource. Another valuable source of information can be observing plants in cultivation (provided they are of known provenance and of recent introduction directly from the wild). Such things will allow those undertaking taxonomic studies to be able to inspect fresh morphological characteristics rather than having to rely on dried specimens only. Lots of images/records are required to understand better variation within species and between species in each genus. Species that occur over a wide geographical and altitudinal range particularly need such studies. We need to encourage more extensive and thorough field-work/observations - quite a problem (and this applies in the West as well) in these days of high-tech science with the attractions of laboratory research rather than the often arduous conditions of going into the field but without this, our knowledge of India flora incl. rarity or abundance will not attain the standards it could. Field-work needs to be given the respect it deserves, even if not especially 'high-tech'! Though the use of digital cameras helps in this respect. Perhaps you could post images of close-ups of the floral (and fruiting) parts of Cautleyas (and other Zingiberaceae) to help clarify issues? Or get some of your students to?
Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk From: J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com> Cc: chrischadwell...@btinternet.com; Narendra Joshi <narend...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, 17 October 2016, 5:54 Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya spicata from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05 Thanks a lot, Sabu ji, for your important views. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mamiyil Sabu Date: 17 October 2016 at 03:58 Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya spicata from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05 To: "J.M. Garg" <jmga...@gmail.com> Please note, C.spicata has flowers crowded into an erect spike. In 'Flowers of the Himalaya' they describeC.gracilis as having a lax drooping spike but certainly early on, it does not droop but the flowers are few and distant.This is correct. C.spicata has spikes 13-23cm. C.gracilis 5-10cm (though it can be hard to judge scale from photos taken from different distances).Correct. C.spicata has red bracts as long as (thus covering) the calyx. C.gracilis has green bracts much shorter than calyx.This is highly confusing. In both species red and green bract forms are available. This is the case with many Zingiberaceae members. C.spicata grows in shrubberies and amongst rocks, sometimes epiphytic whereas C.gracilis is a forest epiphyte, sometimes growing on rocks.The habitat of both species are more or less same. C.spicata has narrow-elliptic leaves whereas C.gracilis has linear long-pointed leaves.Leaves of C. spicata are oblong lanceolate whereas in C. gracilis it is linear lanceolate. Both species were recorded by Collet on Jako, Shimla. Dr. M. Sabu Professor Department of Botany University of Calicut Kerala, 673 635, India Phone: 91--4952431545 Mobile: 91- 09447636333 Website: www.gingersofindia.com http://www. universityofcalicut.info/ index.php?option=com_content& task=view&id=2175&Itemid=246 Google scholar:https://scholar. google.co.in/citations?user= BkXpK9IAAAAJ&hl=en On 16 October 2016 at 19:47, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chrischadwell...@btinternet.co m <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c om> Date: 16 October 2016 at 19:42 Subject: [efloraofindia:253825] Re: Kailas-Manasarovar Yatra::Cautleya spicata from Gala NSJ-OCT 16/05 To: efloraofindia <indiantree...@googlegroups.co m> Mr Garg is correct this is Cautleya spicata. Please note, C.spicata has flowers crowded into an erect spike. In 'Flowers of the Himalaya' they describe C.gracilis as having a lax drooping spike but certainly early on, it does not droop but the flowers are few and distant. C.spicata has spikes 13-23cm. C.gracilis 5-10cm (though it can be hard to judge scale from photos taken from different distances). C.spicata has red bracts as long as (thus covering) the calyx. C.gracilis has green bracts much shorter than calyx. C.spicata grows in shrubberies and amongst rocks, sometimes epiphytic whereas C.gracilis is a forest epiphyte, sometimes growing on rocks. C.spicata has narrow-elliptic leaves whereas C.gracilis has linear long-pointed leaves. Both species were recorded by Collet on Jako, Shimla. The larger image in Cautleya on the Gingers of India site is of C.spicata. See; http://www.gingersofindia.com/ genera-and-species/12:gingers/ 15:cautleya-royle.html The smaller image named as C.gracilis does match this species. Note that Noltie in 'Flora of Bhutan' Vol 3 Part 1 (1994) considers that C.cathcartii to probably be just be a robust form of C.gracilis. There are correct images showing C.gracilis as an epiphyte in Sikkim & Darjeeling:http://www.asianflora.com/Zing iberaceae/Cautleya-gracilis.ht m There are a number of images of herbarium specimens of C.gracilis available on the Kew Herbarium site such as: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/ge tImage.do?imageBarcode=K001057 270 which show the distant flowers - though variation exists. Note that this was originally thought to be a specimen of C.cathcartii. The situation is complicated by a number of images on the internet (primarily of cultivated plants both in India and the West) having been misidentified -this is common-place. It is worth repeating that my informal investigations suggest at least 50% of plants in cultivation under Himalayan names are misidentified. So you cannot always rely upon images on the internet - the same principle applies (though hopefully much less than 50%) to images of plants taken in the Himalaya, in books and articles about Himalayan plants are also misidentified). Even 'Flowers of the Himalaya' has a few misidentifications amongst its images.... ALWAYS be cautious in accepting the information provided on the internet and traditionally printed articles and books. The content of many check-lists and floras covering the Himalaya cannot always be relied upon. I find many littered with clear-cut errors plus numerous questionable records. It is of course difficult for those without the background or experience to be able to question such things. We ALL of us need to be less trusting of information. As for the content of articles published in the amazing array of 'international' journals that abound these days - beware, it is often not peer-reviewed or properly checked (though how could the content be). Even the information supplied by prestigious international organisations is not always accurate.... On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:42:47 PM UTC+1, raj wrote: Dear Members, Cautleya spicata for validation. Photo taken on the way to Gala approx height 7500 feet, Aug 14, 2016. -- With Regards, Narendra Joshi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com. To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout. -- With regards, J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. -- With regards, J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send an email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. 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