Thanks, Gurinder ji On 13 Nov 2016 1:14 pm, "gurinder goraya" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Dr. Chadwell, > > > Thanks for your mail on the subject. I really appreciate the time and > effort you are putting in to help the group correct the identification > of important species groups and in showing a road map for improving the > understanding of the subject. > > > In as far as my post on Gentiana kurroo, I thankfully acknowledge your > inputs. However, I would like to clarify as under: > > > Firstly, I must confess that there is an error in my posting. The place > Sangrah is in 'Sirmour' district of Himachal Pradesh and not in Kinnaur as > erroneously mentioned. > > > Secondly, my post does not claim that the given site is the only one > bearing wild populations of the species. It states that the given site > might perhaps be the last remnant site to bear 'viable' populations (>500 > individuals). Yes, field teams did record its presence (20-50 > individuals) from other localities in Sirmour district and Solan district > in Himachal Pradesh, as well from Mussoorie (Suva Kholi area) and Chakrata > areas in Uttarakhand. No specimen could be located in Shali, perhaps due to > wrong season of visit. Banihal area in Jammu & Kashmir could not be > visited, but local inquiries revealed that locating this species, once > common in the area, has become difficult. The definition of what is > considered 'sizeable' shall remain subjective. > > > Thirdly, the assessment of the species as 'Critically Endangered' has been > based on the IUCN's Red-Listing Criteria and Categories for the State of > Himachal Pradesh only. The major criteria used in assessing this species as > CR was population reduction over the period, mainly dues to gradual loss of > habitat and continuous destructive harvest for herbal use. The threat > categorisation surely helps in flagging the issue and getting conservation > action initiated. It was only after this threat categorisation that work on > regeneration of the species through multiplication started. > > > The action to locate more niches housing stray and viable populations of > the species is continuing and we hope to locate more such patches > containing good wild populations of the species in future. > > > Regards, > > > Dr. G S Goraya, IFS > Deputy Director General (Research), > Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, > New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006. > (Uttarakhand, India) > Tel. (+91-941-802-5036) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > on behalf of [email protected] <chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2016 6:56 AM > *To:* efloraofindia > *Cc:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [efloraofindia:256531] Re: Campanulaceae & Gentianaceae > Fortnight: Gentiana kurroo from Himachal : GSG-09 > > *Sorry, the colony in Kinnaur is not the only viable population > of Gentiana kurroo in the wild.* I was given directions to a sizeable > colony not that far from Mussoorie some years back by a 'Britisher' Doctor > and plant enthusiast who worked at a medical camp in the region and came > across this late autumn flowering spectacular gentian * There is no > reason not to think that it is not found in similar habitat along the full > length of its range.* If you do not know where to look, you will not > find it..... > > *And DO read the EVIDENCE from Pakistan about this gentian which I provide > at the end of my comments.* > > Unfortunately, it is ESSENTIAL to be able to ACCURATELY and RELIABLE > identify plants before they can be conserved or understood. > > I have just come across: http://www.scind.org/297/ > Environment/need-for-the-conservation-of-gentiana-kurroo-a-critically- > endangered-medicinal-plant.html. *The problem is that whilst the photo > to accompany this article is a gentian, it is NOT Gentiana kurroo. Rather > a serious mistake.* > Need For The Conservation Of Gentiana Kurroo: A Critically ... > <http://www.scind.org/297/Environment/need-for-the-conservation-of-gentiana-kurroo-a-critically-endangered-medicinal-plant.html> > www.scind.org > Nature has been a source of medicinal agents for thousands of years, > however, in the recent past these plants are declining very > > > *Indian scientists are not alone misidentifying this plant, see: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/26181971@N07/5982536972 > <https://www.flickr.com/photos/26181971@N07/5982536972> - the gentian being > grown in this botanic garden is not Gentiana kurroo....* > 2011-07-12 Gentiana kurroo - BG Teplice > <https://www.flickr.com/photos/26181971@N07/5982536972> > Czech Republic - Gentiana kurroo - in Botanic Garden Teplice > <https://www.flickr.com/photos/26181971@N07/5982536972/> > > > *And it does not end there, a firm CLAIMING to supply quality Gentiana > kurroo has a photo of a gentian which is NOT Gentiana kurroo.... see: > http://www.himalyanassets.com/gentiana-kurroo.htm > <http://www.himalyanassets.com/gentiana-kurroo.htm>* > Gentiana Kurroo,Gentiana Kurroo Wholesale Suppliers Chamba > <http://www.himalyanassets.com/gentiana-kurroo.htm> > www.himalyanassets.com > Kirpa Ram & Brothers is one of the best exporter & supplier of Gentiana > Kurroo, gentiana kurroos, Gentiana Kurroo, wholesale Gentiana Kurroo > suppliers, gentiana ... > > > *Or you could pay for an image of Gentiana kurroo which is NOT Gentiana > kurroo. See: https://www.gapphotos.com/imagedetails.asp?imageno=192301 > <https://www.gapphotos.com/imagedetails.asp?imageno=192301>* > > > Stewart described Gentiana kurroo as a very fine, large-flowered autumn > species. He recorded populations in Kurram, Hazara, Murree Hills, Poonch > and Kashmir. > > Flowers of the Himalaya say it is found on grassy slopes from Pakistan to > Uttaranachal @ 1800-2700m. It would not have been included in this book > had it not been a quite common plant that plant enthusiasts had a > reasonable prospect of getting to see. Since the plant has the capacity to > "seek refuge" on cliffs inaccessible to most, I cannot see why it has now > been described as 'Critically Endangered', even IF its presence in less > steep habitat has been reduced (IF, in fact it has) but as very few plant > surveys are undertaken by professional botanists (and few of them can > identify plants whilst "in the field") and there are only a small number of > amateur botanists/plant enthusiasts active "in the hills and mountains" who > can reliably identify plants, then *how on earth can anyone judge if > this gentian (or any other plant in the Himalaya) is 'dominant', > 'abundant', 'frequent', 'occasional' or a rarity?* > > *I am the most widely-travelled person along the Himalaya over the > past 30+ years who has the field botany skills to reliably recognise some > of the plants I have seen. For those species I have taken an interest in, > my field experience in many parts of the Himalaya, combined with time spent > in herbaria and researching species recorded by others is unrivalled; I can > say if a plant is common/widespread but not how 'rare' species are. Nobody > can!! * > > *The TRUTH is nobody actually knows about rarities along the Himalaya. I > can say categorically that NUMEROUS species which are claimed to be 'Rare & > Endangered' are no such thing.* Yes, there are botanists who known the > flora of particular regions or states or countries better than I do but > overall my knowledge of Himalayan flora is second-to-none. I do not make > claims I cannot substantiate being experienced and knowledgeable enough to > know what I am entitled to say and what I am not and modest too!! Too many > scientists (and others) draw conclusions they are not entitled to make. > > Gentiana kurroo was not easy to locate on that occasion. The colony we > found was on very steep cliffs. * I don't think too many botanists I know > could safely negotiate such ground.* IF a meaningful assessment was > needed of the size of this population, then it would require an adventurous > field botanist who can safely scramble about on cliffs accompanied by rock > climbers with ropes and other equipment to supervise the botanist abseil > down to conduct a full survey on the steeper parts. In the UK such > surveying techniques are employed for some of the colonies of Lloydia > serotina - known as the 'Snowdon Lily' which, in the UK, is restricted to > base-rich rock ledges in Snowdonia. > > *But I doubt very much if Gentiana kurroo is 'Critically Endangered' - > this cannot possibly be known as insufficient surveys have been undertaken > in promising locations. And if it proves to be typically found on steep > cliffs at these elevations which DEFINITELY have not been surveyed by > Indian botanists, then the species is clearly under no immediate threat as > few, other than rock climbers could reach such colonies!!* > > *It might be that the species is not as widespread on less steep grassy > slopes than it was in the past, due to over-grazing and trampling and > destruction of this type of habitat but nobody actually knows.* > > This gentian is mentioned in 'Flora Simlensis' as growing on Shali, near > the top - and might still be there, though steep ground will probably need > to be inspected to check. Perhaps this gentian retreats to base-rich > rocky outcrops when facing over-grazing and trampling elsewhere. > > Last time I was in Kashmir I visited the University of Kashmir Botanic > Garden at Hazratbal. Gentiana kurroo was being grown there or what had > been identified as such - I did not see it in flower to confirm the > identification. IF correct, then the plants must have been dug up and > transported from a site in Kashmir? I cannot imagine they were taken all > the way from Kinnaur. I was pleasantly surprised to find this gentian > being cultivated in the botanic garden - further evidence that this gentian > may well be able to cope with neutral or non-acidic soils. Few gentians > from the higher mountains in Kashmir would stand much chance of being grown > in a bed in a botanic garden which has hot, dry summer - albeit that it was > established there as live plant material not raised from seed. > > This gentian seems quite distinctive (though clearly from the evidence > above not everyone can recognise it) but many gentians are misidentified. > In the UK this plant was introduced into cultivation in the 1920s but > despite being offered by a number of specialist nurseries and regularly in > seed exchanges, I suspect the genuine article has not been grown there for > decades. My informal research suggests that AT LEAST 50% of all plants in > specialist nurseries, available from seed companies, in society seed > exchanges and even many botanic garden Index Semina, are misidentified. > > I had not come across this gentian before. The fact that I had help in > locating it does not mean it is automatically rare. I have spent very > little time @ 1800-2700m, more interested in higher mountain plants, often > passing through as rapidly as possible or missing out on such elevations > altogether. 2700m is about the lowest part of Ladakh (and much of the > Indian TransHimalaya (where it does not grow). I have trekked from near > Sonamarg in Kashmir a number of times, which if my memory is correct is > around this elevation, so missed out the 1800-2700m part using a road. > And of course not all of these elevations have suitable habitat for > Gentiana kurroo, especially if it has a propensity for base-rich > rocks/soils? IF that is the case, then looking for it on acidic rocks > would be pointless. It would certainly be 'critically endangered' in such > habitat!! > > *So let me finish with the plant's occurrence in Pakistan. I contributed > 4 photos to 'Wild Flowers of Pakistan' by Nasir & Rafiq (Edited & its > publication paid for by Tom Roberts, another Britisher). They list > Gentiana kurroo (under the name Gentianodes kurroo - see Gentianceae in > 'Flora of Pakistan') as the largest flowered of Pakistan's gentians being > LOCALLY COMMON on grassy slopes especially in Murree Hills & Abbottabad > district. This hardly tallies with the claim it is 'Critically > Endangered'.* > > > *Why would the authors include a species that those who bought a copy of > their book did not have a chance of seeing? There are many Gentians in > Pakistan. They described and illustrated only a small number in this book.* > > > On Friday, July 11, 2014 at 12:08:38 PM UTC+1, gurinder goraya wrote: > >> Dears, >> >> *Gentiana kurroo* from Himachal [Sangrah, Dist. Sirmour, 1700 m asl]. >> >> This Indian Gentian forming source of medicinally important 'Trieman' >> roots, has been assessed as Critically Endangered in the wild. I feel happy >> to share that our focused efforts have resulted in identification of >> perhaps the last remnant viable population of this species on precipitous >> grassy slopes near Sangrah in Kinnaur district of Himachal. This site >> bearing an estimated 500 plants of this species has been demarcated and set >> aside as Medicinal Plant Conservation Area (MPCA) as an *in situ* >> conservation measure for this species. Some photographs from this area... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> *Dr. G. S. Goraya, IFS *Deputy Director General (Research), >> Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education, >> New Forest P.O., DEHRADUN - 248 006. >> Uttarakhand, India. >> >> Tel & Fax (O): 0135-2757775 >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
