Dear Dr Singh
Thanks for drawing my attention to this. However, in light of Geranium
lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeedNW of Kumaon at
that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single collection reported in Swat
(Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen tocomment further,
caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications of this species from a
small number of photos only (not showing full characteristics) seems reasonable
to me.
As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with Special
Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors themselves, who with
all due respect are not specialists in the genus and relied solely on what
literature was available to them. They personally are unlikely to have much
familiarity with the genus in the wild, many herbaria or cultivation. They did
not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he passed away some years back that was not
possible but it is highly unlikely that they would have done so, even if he had
still been alive). It is fair to say that it has been to the disadvantage of
Indian botany that contact and collaboration with Western botanists (or
Japanese ones - who have done a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and
plant specialists has been discouraged at a senior level for decades,
Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the
'Conclusions' that there is much confusion in identification especially of
perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination. They
emphasise that the genus needs a revisionary study to comprehensively explore
the genus in India and to review existing collection of the herbaria in light
of current taxonomic researches. The present study is a prelude for further
investigation on Indian Geranium.
I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known to
Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in
Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be.
Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species:
Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian territory)
for Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not previously known in
Kashmir or HP? Where are the herbarium specimens which have been determined as
this species? Surely, when it is claimed that a species has been found in a
region it was not known from before, strong evidence is required to support the
claim.
Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked? I have just posted a
set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in cultivation on
eFI. This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, they can say why)
and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with specimens from Kashmir, HP
and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.
Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison between
scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed specimens (with
few, if any field notes - at time no voucher specimens at all) with often
scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century reference specimens or
by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of the Himalaya' (this is not
a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total flora of the region) which has
at best, single small images and summarised descriptions. Quickly 'matching'
with such guides alone is not a reliable method of plant identification and
whilst can result in reliable identifications for distinctive species but often
misidentifications. I find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and
Indian botanists use 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly. Few seem to have
actually read the written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic
distributions to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if
not, it should be checked further.......
I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium they
do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which were
collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria. Extensive field-work needs
to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign botanists, especially
if specialists in the genera being studied exist and plant
enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along with specialist
horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have ornamental merit
there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in the West such was the
case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University. As far as I know he seldom (if
ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though corresponded with others, like
myself, who had) so his prime source of information were plants in cultivation
(along with pressed specimens in UK and European herbaria he inspected). I
know of expertise (and publications) on quite a number of genera
well-represented in the Himalaya - though some of the experts have now passed
away. I realise, as with professional botanists, not everyone is willing to
help but for those who were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put
to good use by Indian botanists in the past.
I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir are this
species.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Cc: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:55
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257156] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and
Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20
Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim,Kashmir) Nepal,
Bhutan, Tibet.Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015Wagh et al.,
J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji
On 20 Nov 2016 1:22 am, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com"
<chrischadwell261@btinternet. com> wrote:
I am uncertain what this is. It does not match well my understanding of what
G.lambertii is plus there are no records of this species for Kashmir. Shall
look into this further - there are several species of Geranium in Kashmir and
bordering areas I am unfamiliar with. This specimen from Aphawat could be one
of these. Plus there is the possibility of new species of this genus from this
area - some new ones have been recognised in past decades.
I consider it will be helpfulfor keen photographers, willing to make an
additional effort, to knowwhich parts of Geranium to photograph. Having images
of such parts ofeach geranium will greatly aid identification and enhance our
understanding ofthe genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you can help with the
locating andidentification of a species new-to-science! PHOTOGRAPHING
GERANIUMS: IF only the firstone or two flowers have come out don't bother to
collect as the form ofinflorescence will not be evident.
The rootstock is important; get enough to showwhether compact or creeping, or
annual. You can photograph the base ofthe plant which should provide this
information. Clearly, one requirespermission from the authorities to uproot a
plant. There is still a need and indeed role for the collection ofpressed
specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain ofstaff of
botanic gardens/ institutions.
In the early stages of flowering look out forthe best-developed unripe fruits
available.
If fruit is ripe try to include both dehiscedand undehisced states.
If the fruits are falling with the seedsinside them, collect some (many
geraniums disperse their seed explosively butsome seed is often retained).
Include some loose petals whenpressing (detach if necessary). Expose stamens
to show filament shape andhairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which
petals have recently dropped.
Smoothing out one or two leaves andflowers as you close the press may be
helpful; a few separately pressed basaland lower/middle stem leaves are often
useful.
Wilted specimens can be verymisleading.
Notes should be taken as to flowerposture, colour and patterning of petals,
colour of stigmas, anthers and distalparts of filaments (not necessary if your
photos show these).
And don't forget to ensure thestipules are clearly shown - something that would
have been obviously inpressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 at 7:42:28 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
Geranium lambertii Sweet, Geraniaceae. 4: t. 338. 1827.Syn: Geranium
grevilleanum Wall.
Perennial herb with thick short vertical rootstock; branches trailing or
ascending, up to 50 cm tall; Leaves opposite, stipules broadly lanceolate,
free, 8-13 mm long, upper narrower; leaf blade 5-angled, 5-7-lobed to about
middle, 6-8 cm broad, with rhomboid-cuneate lobes, appressed-hairy; flowers
pale pink, rose-coloured or white,25-35 mm across,in 2-flowered cluster on up
to 16 cm long peduncle covered with spreading hairs; pedicel up to 5 cm long;
sepals elliptic-ovate, 8-14 mm long, mucro 1.5-2 mm long; petals 15-22 mm long,
hairy at base, tip rounded or depressed; filaments lanceolate, hairy outside,
anthers black; mericarps smooth, beak ap to 3 cm long.
Photographed from Apharwat Kashmir. The leaves resemble G. wallichianum but
stipules are much narrow and free and petals rose to white.
--
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com /
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/
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