Thanks, Chadwell ji On 22 Nov 2016 7:22 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Dr Singh > > Thanks for drawing my attention to this. However, in light of Geranium > lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeed > NW of Kumaon at that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single > collection reported in Swat (Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen to > comment further, *caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications > of this species from a small number of photos only (not showing full > characteristics) seems reasonable to me.* > > As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with > Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors > themselves, who with all due respect are not specialists in the genus and > relied *solely* on what literature was available to them. They > personally > are unlikely to have much familiarity with the genus in the wild, many > herbaria or cultivation. They did not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he > passed away some years back that was not possible but it is highly unlikely > that they would have done so, even if he had still been alive). It is fair > to say that it has been to the disadvantage of Indian botany that contact > and collaboration with Western botanists (or Japanese ones - who have done > a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and plant specialists has been > discouraged at a senior level for decades, > > Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the > 'Conclusions' that *there is much confusion in identification especially > of perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination.* > They emphasise that* the genus needs a revisionary study to > comprehensively explore the genus in India and to review existing > collection of the herbaria in light of current taxonomic researches. The > present study is a prelude for further investigation on Indian Geranium.* > > I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known > to Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in > Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be. > > Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species: > Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian > territory) for *Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not > previously known in Kashmir or HP?* Where are the herbarium specimens > which have been determined as this species? Surely, when it is claimed > that a species has been found in a region it was not known from before, > strong evidence is required to support the claim. > > Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked? *I have just > posted a set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in > cultivation on eFI. This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, > they can say why) and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with > specimens from Kashmir, HP and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.* > > *Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison > between scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed > specimens (with few, if any field notes - at time no voucher specimens at > all) with often scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century > reference specimens or by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of > the Himalaya' (this is not a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total > flora of the region) which has at best, single small images and summarised > descriptions. Quickly 'matching' with such guides alone is not a reliable > method of plant identification and whilst can result in reliable > identifications for distinctive species but often misidentifications. I > find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and Indian botanists use > 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly. Few seem to have actually read the > written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic distributions > to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if not, it > should be checked further....... * > > *I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium > they do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which > were collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria. Extensive > field-work needs to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign > botanists, especially if specialists in the genera being studied exist and > plant enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along > with specialist horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have > ornamental merit there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in > the West such was the case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University. As far > as I know he seldom (if ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though > corresponded with others, like myself, who had) so his prime source of > information were plants in cultivation (along with pressed specimens in UK > and European herbaria he inspected). I know of expertise (and > publications) on quite a number of genera well-represented in the Himalaya > - though some of the experts have now passed away. I realise, as with > professional botanists, not everyone is willing to help but for those who > were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put to good use by > Indian botanists in the past.* > > *I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir > are this species.* > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:55 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:257156] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and > Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20 > > Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, > Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet. > Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015 > Wagh et al., J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2 > http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140 > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji > > On 20 Nov 2016 1:22 am, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > I am uncertain what this is. It does not match well my understanding of > what G.lambertii is plus there are no records of this species for Kashmir. > Shall look into this further - there are several species of Geranium in > Kashmir and bordering areas I am unfamiliar with. This specimen from > Aphawat could be one of these. Plus there is the possibility of new > species of this genus from this area - some new ones have been recognised > in past decades. > > I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an > additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having > images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and > enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you > can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science! > > > PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: > > *IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to > collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.* > > *The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or > creeping, or annual. You can photograph the base of the plant which should > provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the > authorities to uproot a plant. There is still a need and indeed role for > the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is > primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.* > > * In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe > fruits available.* > > * If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.* > > * If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many > geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).* > > *Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose > stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a > flower from which petals have recently dropped.* > > *Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be > helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are > often useful.* > > *Wilted specimens can be very misleading.* > > *Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of > petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not > necessary if your photos show these).* > > *And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something > that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above > by Yeo.* > > > On Saturday, March 9, 2013 at 7:42:28 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote: > > *Geranium lambertii* Sweet, Geraniaceae. 4: t. 338. 1827. > Syn: *Geranium **grevilleanum* Wall. > > Perennial herb with thick short vertical rootstock; branches trailing or > ascending, up to 50 cm tall; Leaves opposite, stipules broadly lanceolate, > free, 8-13 mm long, upper narrower; leaf blade 5-angled, 5-7-lobed to about > middle, 6-8 cm broad, with rhomboid-cuneate lobes, appressed-hairy; flowers > pale pink, rose-coloured or white,25-35 mm across,in 2-flowered cluster on > up to 16 cm long peduncle covered with spreading hairs; pedicel up to 5 cm > long; sepals elliptic-ovate, 8-14 mm long, mucro 1.5-2 mm long; petals > 15-22 mm long, hairy at base, tip rounded or depressed; filaments > lanceolate, hairy outside, anthers black; mericarps smooth, beak ap to 3 cm > long. > > Photographed from Apharwat Kashmir. The leaves resemble G. wallichianum > but stipules are much narrow and free and petals rose to white. > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / <http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/ <http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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