Thanks but the main issue is what species this geranium is. I remain
uncertain.
Are you familiar with Geranium kashmirianum? In another post I have requested
a description of this (and ideallyimages) and how this is distinguished from
other geraniums in Kashmir?
Are you familiar with G.kishtvariense and how this is distinguished from other
geraniums in Kashmir.
Are you familiar with G.swatense and how it is disntiguished from other
geraniums.
Until I am comfortable recognising all the geraniums recorded from Kashmir,
shall struggle to be sure of images posted andwhether many represent a taxon
not previously recorded.
As it now appears that what was G.pratense in Kashmir is now G.clarkei? What
about Geranium collinum?
Are you familiar with G.himalayense? Are you familiar with G.regelii?
I would welcome seeing any geraniums you have photographed in the NW Himalaya.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Cc: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:38
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:257413] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and
Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium collinum from Kashmir-GS-19
Thanks a lot Dr. Chadwell for your very critical analysis. I assure you all
images are from the same plant, I have even checked time of photography. Why it
looks different to you I think is because it shows upper view of flowers,
others lower view. I have cropped original image 1 to show stipules and
bracts, and similar from G. wallichianum. You may compare to see clear
differences. To me G. wallichianum is a very distinct species, not to be
easily confused with others.
Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:38 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji
On 19 Nov 2016 6:28 pm, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com"
<chrischadwell261@btinternet. com> wrote:
I currently cannotput a firm name on this - shall comment further in due
course, though is often difficult with so little information to go on when only
a small number of photos are taken. KINDLY NOTE THAT THE 4TH IMAGE DOES NOT
TALLY WITH THE FIRST THREE (assuming the third image does represent the lower
leaves of the first two) - the flower looks like a variant of Geranium
wallichianum to me. This species has widely-varying flower colour. There is a
form in cultivation in the UK known as 'Buxton's Variety (sometimes but
incorrectly, as 'Buxton's Blue). A colleague of mine came across a variant
similar to this on the Rohtang in 1989. G.wallichianum is recorded from up to
3300m, so may well be found on Khelanmarg (albeit towards its upper limit
altitude-wise). The stipules are not shown in any of the photos, which in the
case of G.wallichianum are usually diagnostic. It is not unknown to have more
than one species of Geranium growing near to each other/amongst each other,
meaning care needs to be taken to distinguish between them.
Given that geraniums readily hybridise in cultivation one has to wonder about
the possibility of hybrids when two geranium species meet in the wild? I have
yet to see the possibility of hybrids mentioned in any postings on eFI in
relation to possible identification of any genera (nor apomictic genera like
Taraxacum). True, it is often hard enough to try and recognise which species a
specimen belongs to, let alone consider hybrids!
Further to myrecent post about photographing Geraniums. I am far from certain
that thetrue Geranium collinum is found in the Himalaya. This is a
complicatedmatter. Let me try to explain. It has certainly been thought to in
thepast. Stewart e.g. listed this species from the Khardong La in his 'TheFlora
of Ladakh' (1916-17) - I have not seen the pressed specimen but from
thealtitude and location, I would think this is probably what I understand to
beG.regelii. He also listed G.grandiflorum (which is now Geraniumhimalayense).
The images above do not come close to my understanding ofeither of these
species - nor G,.pratense subsp. stewartianum a specimen ofwhich I saw near
Sonamarg which Peter Yeo at Cambridge identified as this in1987. Dickore &
Klimes (2005) which is the most up-to-date checklistfor Ladakh do not include
G.collinum only G. himalayense, pratense, regelii andsibiricum. In 'The
Valley of Flowers'G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and grevilleanum (now
G.lambertii) arelisted. In the Notes Yeo supplied me, hedraws attention to the
problematical G.collinum-pratense-himalayens ealliance. He considered this was
particularly critical in the NW Himalayawith high quality pressed specimens
needed (nowadays these can be supplementedand sometimes replaced by high
quality digital images (provided the advicegiven below is followed). This
alliance has pink to blue flowers(sometimes white) in which the stamen-tip and
stigmas are neverblackish-purple...
I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make
anadditional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having
images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identificationand
enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps youcan
help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science!
PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: IF only the firstone or two flowers have come out
don't bother to collect as the form ofinflorescence will not be evident.
The rootstock is important; get enough to showwhether compact or creeping, or
annual. You can photograph the base ofthe plant which should provide this
information. Clearly, one requirespermission from the authorities to uproot a
plant. There is still a need and indeed role for the collection ofpressed
specimens for herbaria in India but that is primarily the domain ofstaff of
botanic gardens/ institutions.
In the early stages of flowering look out forthe best-developed unripe fruits
available.
If fruit is ripe try to include both dehiscedand undehisced states.
If the fruits are falling with the seedsinside them, collect some (many
geraniums disperse their seed explosively butsome seed is often retained).
Include some loose petals whenpressing (detach if necessary). Expose stamens
to show filament shape andhairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a flower from which
petals have recently dropped.
Smoothing out one or two leaves andflowers as you close the press may be
helpful; a few separately pressed basaland lower/middle stem leaves are often
useful.
Wilted specimens can be verymisleading.
Notes should be taken as to flowerposture, colour and patterning of petals,
colour of stigmas, anthers and distalparts of filaments (not necessary if your
photos show these).
And don't forget to ensure thestipules are clearly shown - something that would
have been obviously inpressed specimens, so not mentioned above by Yeo.
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 at 3:56:25 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote:
Posting again as I missed proper subject line in earlier post
Geranium collinum Steph. ex Willd., Sp. Pl. 3:705. 1800.
Perennial herb up to 80 cm tall with elongated horizontal rhizome, stems
ascending to erect with retrorse hairs and some spreading glandular hairs;
stipules lanceolate, 6-8 mm long; leaves opposite, petiole up to 12 cm long in
lower leaves, upper shorter; blade rounded, 2-8 cm broad,5-7 lobed to about
middle, segments wedge-shaped further 3-5-lobed; flowers 25-30 mm across,
lilac to lilac-purple, usually in 2-flowered cluster on up to 15 cm long
ascending to recurved peduncle; pedicel up to 5 cm long; bracteoles
linear-lanceolate; sepals 5-9 mm long, elliptic-oblong, with 1-2 mm long mucro,
pubescent; petals 12-18 mm long, obovate, rounded to retuse at tip; filaments
triangular and hairy at base; mericarps pubescent, with up to 2.5 cm long beak.
Photographed from Khillenmarg, Kashmir, about 3000 m altitude
-- Dr. Gurcharan SinghRetired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://www.gurcharanfamily.com /
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/
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