Thanks, Chadwell ji On 24 Nov 2016 10:38 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks but the main issue is what species this geranium is. I remain > uncertain. > > Are you familiar with Geranium kashmirianum? In another post I have > requested a description of this (and ideally > images) and how this is distinguished from other geraniums in Kashmir? > > Are you familiar with G.kishtvariense and how this is distinguished from > other geraniums in Kashmir. > > Are you familiar with G.swatense and how it is disntiguished from other > geraniums. > > Until I am comfortable recognising all the geraniums recorded from > Kashmir, shall struggle to be sure of images posted and > whether many represent a taxon not previously recorded. > > As it now appears that what was G.pratense in Kashmir is now G.clarkei? > What about Geranium collinum? > > Are you familiar with G.himalayense? Are you familiar with G.regelii? > > *I would welcome seeing any geraniums you have photographed in the NW > Himalaya.* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:38 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:257113] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and > Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium collinum from Kashmir-GS-19 > > Thanks a lot Dr. Chadwell for your very critical analysis. I assure you > all images are from the same plant, I have even checked time of > photography. Why it looks different to you I think is because it shows > upper view of flowers, others lower view. > I have cropped original image 1 to show stipules and bracts, and > similar from G. wallichianum. You may compare to see clear differences. > To me G. wallichianum is a very distinct species, not to be easily > confused with others. > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:38 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji > > On 19 Nov 2016 6:28 pm, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>> wrote: > > *I currently cannot put a firm name on this - shall comment further in due > course, though is often difficult with so little information to go on when > only a small number of photos are taken. KINDLY NOTE THAT THE 4TH IMAGE > DOES NOT TALLY WITH THE FIRST THREE (assuming the third image does > represent the lower leaves of the first two) - the flower looks like a > variant of Geranium wallichianum to me. This species has widely-varying > flower colour. There is a form in cultivation in the UK known as 'Buxton's > Variety (sometimes but incorrectly, as 'Buxton's Blue). A colleague of > mine came across a variant similar to this on the Rohtang in 1989. > G.wallichianum is recorded from up to 3300m, so may well be found on > Khelanmarg (albeit towards its upper limit altitude-wise). The stipules > are not shown in any of the photos, which in the case of G.wallichianum are > usually diagnostic. It is not unknown to have more than one species of > Geranium growing near to each other/amongst each other, meaning care needs > to be taken to distinguish between them. * > > *Given that geraniums readily hybridise in cultivation one has to wonder > about the possibility of hybrids when two geranium species meet in the > wild? I have yet to see the possibility of hybrids mentioned in any > postings on eFI in relation to possible identification of any genera (nor > apomictic genera like Taraxacum). True, it is often hard enough to try and > recognise which species a specimen belongs to, let alone consider hybrids!* > > Further to my recent post about photographing Geraniums. I am far from > certain that the true Geranium collinum is found in the Himalaya. This is a > complicated matter. Let me try to explain. It has certainly been thought > to in the past. Stewart e.g. listed this species from the Khardong La in > his 'The Flora of Ladakh' (1916-17) - I have not seen the pressed specimen > but from the altitude and location, I would think this is probably what I > understand to be G.regelii. He also listed G.grandiflorum (which is now > Geranium himalayense). The images above do not come close to my > understanding of either of these species - nor G,.pratense subsp. > stewartianum a specimen of which I saw near Sonamarg which Peter Yeo at > Cambridge identified as this in 1987. Dickore & Klimes (2005) which is the > most up-to-date checklist for Ladakh do not include G.collinum only G. > himalayense, pratense, regelii and sibiricum. > > In 'The Valley of Flowers' G.pratense, collinum, wallichianum and > grevilleanum (now G.lambertii) are listed. > > In the Notes Yeo supplied me, he draws attention to the problematical > G.collinum-pratense-himalayens e alliance. He considered this was > particularly critical in the NW Himalaya with high quality pressed > specimens needed (nowadays these can be supplemented and sometimes replaced > by high quality digital images (provided the advice given below is > followed). This alliance has pink to blue flowers (sometimes white) in > which the stamen-tip and stigmas are never blackish-purple... > > > I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an > additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having > images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and > enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you > can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science! > > > PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: > > *IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to > collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.* > > *The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or > creeping, or annual. You can photograph the base of the plant which should > provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the > authorities to uproot a plant. There is still a need and indeed role for > the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is > primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.* > > * In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe > fruits available.* > > * If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.* > > * If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some (many > geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often retained).* > > *Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose > stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a > flower from which petals have recently dropped.* > > *Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may be > helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are > often useful.* > > *Wilted specimens can be very misleading.* > > *Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of > petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not > necessary if your photos show these).* > > *And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something > that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above > by Yeo.* > > > > On Saturday, March 9, 2013 at 3:56:25 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote: > > Posting again as I missed proper subject line in earlier post > > *Geranium collinum* Steph. ex Willd., Sp. Pl. 3:705. 1800. > > Perennial herb up to 80 cm tall with elongated horizontal rhizome, stems > ascending to erect with retrorse hairs and some spreading glandular hairs; > stipules lanceolate, 6-8 mm long; leaves opposite, petiole up to 12 cm long > in lower leaves, upper shorter; blade rounded, 2-8 cm broad,5-7 lobed to > about middle, segments wedge-shaped further 3-5-lobed; flowers 25-30 mm > across, lilac to lilac-purple, usually in 2-flowered cluster on up to 15 cm > long ascending to recurved peduncle; pedicel up to 5 cm long; bracteoles > linear-lanceolate; sepals 5-9 mm long, elliptic-oblong, with 1-2 mm long > mucro, pubescent; petals 12-18 mm long, obovate, rounded to retuse at tip; > filaments triangular and hairy at base; mericarps pubescent, with up to 2.5 > cm long beak. > > Photographed from Khillenmarg, Kashmir, about 3000 m altitude > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / <http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/ <http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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